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Old 04-22-2005, 05:34 PM   #106
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I have nothing at all to say in this conversation - except that I am enjoying it alot and feel like a very special fly on the wall!
I don't know very many christians, and esp. don't know any willing to discuss peacefully theological differences. This is really cool. Of course, it's a u2 thing, I am convinced...Thanks, and I will go back to buzzing in a corner now....
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Old 04-22-2005, 05:47 PM   #107
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This is bad teaching. Inerrancy of Scripture is the accurate description. Saying that one group must take every word to a letter is an easy way to paint them in a corner without understanding what they truly believe.
Oh, I understand what they believe, trust me.

I am speaking about fundamental Christians here, surrounded by them in school, at every place I've worked, in my family, in my neighborhoods, I live in the heart of the Bible belt, there aren't many people who have a better understanding of them than those who are surrounded by them constantly, their whole lives.

And oh yes, I was taught many of these things. So I know what "they" believe because essentially I was "they" at least for a time in my earlier life.

As for inerrancy of scripture, that's fine. That is consistent with true fundamentalism, it would also be accurate to say every word and letter must be taken as inerrant. If this is the case, then you have to follow it, there is no wiggle room, it is what it is.

Besides it was just a generalization for the sake of time and effort, I thought there was an implicit understading that we are all adults, we all can read and comprehend what is being said and generalizations are apart of that.

Not trying to be offensive, I understand the idea that using terms like "fundamentalists" can be construed negatively. I don't mean it that way, it's the proper way to describe them. They believe in the fundamentals of the Bible, take it word for word. I believe in the teachings of the Bible, I believe the nature of the gospel is "inerrant". I don't however believe that's man's ability to foul things up is inerrant. That's all.
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Old 04-22-2005, 06:15 PM   #108
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U2DMFan— I'll respond to your last point because I found it funny. None of my posts in this thread have been copied and pasted from a Web site. I don't know if I should take that as a compliment or a put down to my posts. (I do write for a living, so maybe that's part of it. I also enjoy studying Christian apologetics. I confess, I do look up certain sites from time to time, but I don't cut and paste information. I like to write it in my own language.)

Anywho, the first thing I want to clarify is that in Timothy where it says "inspired by God," it's not talking about inspiration like "I was inspired by that woman's beauty to paint this painting," it's talking about influence. Those who wrote the Bible did so under the influence of the Holy Spirit — God. It may not have come from God's mouth, but it gets across what God wanted to be said, if that makes sense.

The second thing that needs to be clarified is your interpretation of the word "correction" in the verse. It's not saying that the Bible is in need of correction, it's saying the Bible can be used for correction, in terms of people's character and the way they live their life.

Also, most Christians don't think the whole Bible is to be taken literal. If they did, we'd all be walking around with our eyes gouged out and hands cut off. There are parts that are figurative language as well as poetic and other forms of language. HOWEVER, there's more straight forward language being used that many people think. To clearly know what voice the texts are written in, we can't just assume we know on our own. We can, however, come to this conclusion through studying the Bible, the writer, the context and other stuff.

You said Christ quotes the Book of Enoch, but that's not true. If you go to biblegateway.com (yes, I'm using the Internet here and I'm not ashamed of it.) and search the Bible for Enoch, you'll see that Enoch himself is mentioned briefly in passing in the Gospel of Luke as Luke writes out Christ's geneology. Nowhere does Christ himself quote the Book of Enoch.
The only point in the entire Bible the book may have been quoted is in the Book of Jude. Even then, just because it's quoted doesn't mean it's influenced by God enough to be included in the Bible, you know?

Also, the books of the Bible weren't selected in a hurry. It took many years to put it together with a crap-load of careful consideration by many people.

I hope that doesn't sound like I cut and pasted stuff! Notice I didn't use any scripture either. Thanks for the discussion.
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Old 04-22-2005, 06:18 PM   #109
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Hey Tinnybubbles
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Old 04-22-2005, 06:36 PM   #110
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yolland — I guess you can interpret Christ's words however you want. Sounds pretty clear cut to me though.

1 John 5:11-12 backs it up saying "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Does that sound like mystical language?

You really don't even need scripture to debate this. I mean, do you really think God would send his son to earth to live as we do only live the perfect life, claim to be who he is, predict his own death (which also was fortold many times with detail in the Old Testament, then die that horrible, painful, shamefull death and be resurrected three days later and then say "Oh, if you don't like that sacrifice I made so you can spend eternity with me, then you can just go your own way." ?

With all due respect, there's no logic in that.

By the way, I sincerely don't mean to come across as a prick in any of these posts and I am truly sorry if I do. I enjoy this discussion and I hope I'm not offending anyone.
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Old 04-22-2005, 06:51 PM   #111
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Originally posted by coemgen
U2DMFan— I'll respond to your last point because I found it funny. None of my posts in this thread have been copied and pasted from a Web site. I don't know if I should take that as a compliment or a put down to my posts. (I do write for a living, so maybe that's part of it. I also enjoy studying Christian apologetics. I confess, I do look up certain sites from time to time, but I don't cut and paste information. I like to write it in my own language.)

Anywho, the first thing I want to clarify is that in Timothy where it says "inspired by God," it's not talking about inspiration like "I was inspired by that woman's beauty to paint this painting," it's talking about influence. Those who wrote the Bible did so under the influence of the Holy Spirit — God. It may not have come from God's mouth, but it gets across what God wanted to be said, if that makes sense.

The second thing that needs to be clarified is your interpretation of the word "correction" in the verse. It's not saying that the Bible is in need of correction, it's saying the Bible can be used for correction, in terms of people's character and the way they live their life.

Also, most Christians don't think the whole Bible is to be taken literal. If they did, we'd all be walking around with our eyes gouged out and hands cut off. There are parts that are figurative language as well as poetic and other forms of language. HOWEVER, there's more straight forward language being used that many people think. To clearly know what voice the texts are written in, we can't just assume we know on our own. We can, however, come to this conclusion through studying the Bible, the writer, the context and other stuff.

You said Christ quotes the Book of Enoch, but that's not true. If you go to biblegateway.com (yes, I'm using the Internet here and I'm not ashamed of it.) and search the Bible for Enoch, you'll see that Enoch himself is mentioned briefly in passing in the Gospel of Luke as Luke writes out Christ's geneology. Nowhere does Christ himself quote the Book of Enoch.
The only point in the entire Bible the book may have been quoted is in the Book of Jude. Even then, just because it's quoted doesn't mean it's influenced by God enough to be included in the Bible, you know?

Also, the books of the Bible weren't selected in a hurry. It took many years to put it together with a crap-load of careful consideration by many people.

I hope that doesn't sound like I cut and pasted stuff! Notice I didn't use any scripture either. Thanks for the discussion.
well, I'm glad you found it humorous, as opposed to offensive, even if it wasn't meant to be either.

What I mean by the last comment was, a reply that said "read Verse 1 Chapter this that etc. " I meant, I wanted to read some intellectual thought rather than have to go refer to the Bible for something that I could take one way, and you could take the other.

As for "inspired", you mean that if I prayed for influence on a song, or a painting, or a book, and I was under the Holy Spirit could my song, painting, or book could be considered a Holy relic of some sort?

The "correction" verse, I took the other meaning to, I guess ironically I read it too literally, or I read what I wanted to read, it's the fundie in me

As for most Christians don't think the Bible should be taken literally, I would agree, but not many fundamentalists. Perhaps our defitions of fundamentalism is not the same. I know people who take it word for word, of course they don't follow everything in it.

I do agree with studying the context of the scriptures, as I have tried to educate myself on this or that. My point was that the poetic liscence and figurative IS TAKEN LITERALLY by many, you may not, others may not, but I am talking about true fundamental Christains here. No need to look further than the book of Leviticus for selective ideas on this. Some of the fundies, take certain passages as absolute truth and dismiss others. If we are on the supposition that it's all inspired and useful, then why not follow all of it?

Maybe some of you haven't met these types, I know them well. If they are consistent in their believes, I actually have admiration for those who follwo this strict path, but a lot do not, therefore, I can't understand it.

Christ got the phrase "Son of Man" from the book of Enoch. I'll try to find a link that shows where I got this from, it might be a waste of time as this might be from a gnostic text that you may dismiss.

Closing, I wasn't directing the comments at you, about the cut and paste. I just rather people try and speak (type) from tehir gut than giving me chapter and verse answers, you know what I mean?

And again, all generalizations are not out of ignorance, but of either laziness or trying to be concise in an otherwise long post
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Old 04-22-2005, 07:13 PM   #112
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By the way, I sincerely don't mean to come across as a prick in any of these posts and I am truly sorry if I do. I enjoy this discussion and I hope I'm not offending anyone.
No more of a Prick than I am and I too am enjoying the conversation!
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