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Old 04-21-2005, 03:20 PM   #61
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I guess we will all have to disagree then...Respectfully of course...

Grace is not something I believe is limited to what the writers of the Gospels have believed it to mean.

That to me is the great thing about God in that repeatedly I see a pattern of mankind thinking they know the will of God, yest somehow God always seems to have other ideas in store for us.

To say that God's grace is dependant on a human being accepting it to me is wrong. \God chose people, sinners, throughout the old testamant. They did not choose God. God picked them, with all of their deficits. Again and again the story repeats itself. God chooses.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:22 PM   #62
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I would disagree with the assumption that Catholics "need" an intercessor. My interpretation of the difference is that Catholics have many ways of creating a relationship with God, both directly as well as through intercessors like Mary and the saints.
I agree, Jessica. Catholics have many ways of creating a relationship with God. I don't think I need an intercessor. I have a direct relationship with Jesus Christ as do my Protestant friends. Catholics do believe that the priest performs an intercessory role in consecrating the host. The biggest difference to me is how we do our worship services. A Protestant service is built around a sermon, and a Catholic service is built around the Eucharist.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:25 PM   #63
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I'm not saying God doesn't extend grace to all, but salvation is different. The Bible does say he's a perfect judge and I know he meets us where we're at individually, but it's also clear how we should react to Christ's sacrifice. And that's not just found in the gospels.

You may be bothered by people thinking they know God's will, but that was, in fact, why the Bible was written — for us to know God's will for our lives on a general level.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:31 PM   #64
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I don't personally, no. However, the point I made is found many times in the Bible. That's what I'm going on there.
You say it has happened many times without giving examples.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:35 PM   #65
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Why shouldn't you......Do you somehow know to whom God is going to extend grace towards?
God extends his grace to me. I have sinned many times. The fact that I have salvation is because he offered it to me free of charge. It has nothing to do with anything I have done. That's grace.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:37 PM   #66
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I'm not saying God doesn't extend grace to all, but salvation is different. The Bible does say he's a perfect judge and I know he meets us where we're at individually, but it's also clear how we should react to Christ's sacrifice. And that's not just found in the gospels.

You may be bothered by people thinking they know God's will, but that was, in fact, why the Bible was written — for us to know God's will for our lives on a general level.
Either it was written by people who knew God's will or it waswritten by God...Which is it?

There have been PLENTY of debates throughout the history of Christianity about Grace.

There have been theories by theologians that man has no way of rejecting God's grace. There have been theories that there are different kinds of grace.

Thomism, Molinism , Augustinianism , Congruism and plenty more.

All have their own interesting theories about Grace.

All written by theologians and believers, but all different.

Point being, we do not know! But I have faith from my reading the Bible that God always throws a monkey wrench into whom GOD CHOOSES. Not always the most holy, not always the most sanctified.

God Chooses....not man.

And unfortunately, I respectfully disagree with anyone who believes that there is only one way to get to heaven, or who thinks they know the will of God.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:38 PM   #67
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God extends his grace to me. I have sinned many times. The fact that I have salvation is because he offered it to me free of charge. It has nothing to do with anything I have done. That's grace.
Praise be.....It has NOTHING to do with any act of man which is my point.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:44 PM   #68
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hopefully i make the cut. i used to be a christian, so in some circles that gets me in. *crosses fingers*
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:59 PM   #69
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Here you go, Dreadsox. The best example is from Christ himself in chapter 14, verse 6 of the Gospel of John, which says "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Then in 1 John 5:11-12, you have "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

These were just a couple I know off the top of my head. I can find more tonight. Now I've got 45 minutes to finish my last story.

As far as the Bible, it was written by men with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you want to say by men, you're right. If you want to say by God, you're right. It's how you look at it.

As far as salvation goes, there have been plenty of debates, but there's debates on everything. (i.e. white smoke or black?) The verses above give us a crystal clear definition of salvation. At the same time, God is just and will judge us where we're at. But for those of us who have heard of Christ and his work on the cross and all that, we have a decision to make.
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Old 04-21-2005, 04:04 PM   #70
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well some people think that "god is love."
they also think that "jesus is god."
so thereby we can conclude that "jesus is love."

"Love is the way and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through Love."

a stretch, maybe. but interesting nonetheless.
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Old 04-21-2005, 04:12 PM   #71
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Praise be.....It has NOTHING to do with any act of man which is my point.
That's what I've been saying all along, and it is exactly that quality - that man can do nothing to earn his way into heaven - that makes a belief in Christ absolutely necessary.

Wait, I think it just hit me.

We've come to a wall here that is probably impassable, an issue that has also been debated between Calvinists and NonCalvinists for centuries:

Does "believing in the Gospel of Jesus" constitute a work?

I say that "belief" is not a work, but rather an expression of free will, which God has given to all men.

This is a very meaty subject, dread. Very meaty, indeed.
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Old 04-21-2005, 04:14 PM   #72
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There's also a verse in 1 Corinthians that says "love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not selfseeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in eveil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."

No, substitute yourself for love. "I am patient, I am kind . . . I never fail."

It doesn't work.

Now substitute Jesus. "Jesus is patient, Jesus is kind . . . Jesus never fails."

It works now.
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Old 04-21-2005, 05:12 PM   #73
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"i am love" was not part of the logic.
"i" am not god, nor am "i" jesus.

the point was that jesus and love could be interchangable, and you highlighted that nicely.

i, or we, have nothing to do with it.
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Old 04-21-2005, 05:16 PM   #74
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I say that "belief" is not a work, but rather an expression of free will, which God has given to all men.
do you honestly believe in the ideal of "free will?" i, for one, do not. i don't see how it is possible for a human to make a completely objective decision about anything. the way you think, act, and talk..it's all influenced by SOMETHING. nothing of man is objective or beyond a sphere of influence.
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Old 04-21-2005, 05:23 PM   #75
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I fail to see how those verses demonstrate that God is not capable of extending grace to whomever God chooses.

respectfully, I disagree.

I thought you were saying there were examples in the Bible of good people who were going to hell.

I would say there are far more examples of people I would consider assholes shown grace.
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