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Old 04-21-2005, 09:37 AM   #46
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Unfortunately religion is often not so much about spirituality as it claims to be.

Religion is based on the history of the peoples of the world who, as a group or tribe, each rightfully need to feel they have a place in this world. Each further seeks to find a physically transcendent system to guide their behavior.

Why do you think there is a purely "American" Christianity (i.e Mormonism)? Why is the Roman Catholic church (historically) made up of Italians and Southern Europeans? (because the Pope controlled a lot more territory than the tiny Vatican City before the Italian republic came into being). Why do the people of India have their own religion and the people of China theirs?

Each religion has an agenda to claim it is the "one, true way" to whatever it holds to be most important - be it "salvation", a good life on earth, an end to the continuance of the life cycle (i.e. cycle of reincarnation), etc.

In this way they all have something to offer humankind and they all also contain something that dehumanizes us from one another.

It should all probably be taken with a grain of salt.
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:37 AM   #47
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Why wait until you're dead to figure it out though, ZeroDude?
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:41 AM   #48
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withashout, you're right that religion has historical and even geographic elements too it, but Christianity as faith stretches across all of that. Maybe there's many different Christian denominations (of which Mormonism shouldn't be included because it's not Christianity), but their focus is following Christ. You're right though, religion can often get in the way of the relationship with Christ.
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:43 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Why wait until you're dead to figure it out though, ZeroDude?
Because in death lies my answer, if there is no after life, I can't complain, for I will be no more, it ends up as a simple yes or no kind of situation, if there is what form it will take is worth investigation
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:46 AM   #50
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What if what form it takes depends on a decision you make when you're alive?
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:58 AM   #51
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I don't see much point is procrastinating in this context, if thats the case I may find myself in a "shotgun shack" to quote David Byrne, I try to live my live to be a good person, not to any particularly religious standards but to have a morality based on my beliefs that there is an inherent goodness in mankind aswell as an imbedded evil, maybe man is both God and Devil, maybe we manifest this in ourselves and represent the full nature of any doctrine of any church. My favorite message of Christianity is the ressurection, according to scripture, Jesus not only divine but a man like you or me, this man overcame death, so by the strength of the human will surely we can overcome death? Of course even imo this is all conjecture but if we strive and push enough for everything then mankind can do anything, maybe this could be too much pride on my behalf and will be cast down to a hypothetical hell, but still maybe I have some validity here, who knows, we don't
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Old 04-21-2005, 10:18 AM   #52
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ZeroDude — Christ rose from the dead not because of his will power as a man, but because of the power of God. That's how God defeated death, therefore allowing us to do the same through a belief that he already did it through Christ. Does that make sense?

What I'm getting at in asking you those questions is just getting you to think about it a little more. It's the most serious decision you'll make in your life. I'm thrilled that you believe in the resurrection — that's central to the whole thing. In fact, I find it amazing that you believe in that, but not so much in what the Bible tells us of what happens after we die. Sure, you can wait and see if nothing happens, but if what the Bible says will happen is to happen, is that a gamble you're really willing to take? This is serious stuff here.
One of the coolest things I've ever heard is that eternity starts here on earth —*and that occurs when you make the decision to accept, or reject, the fact that Christ died for our sins and was resurrected, and after you ask him to forgive you of your sins and then accept him as Lord of your life. Like it's been discussed here in this thread already, just being a good person isn't enough. Christ came to die for our sins because being a good person doesn't cleanse us of them in God's eyes. It doesn't make us righteous again. However, Christ, who lived a perfect life, died in our place so that we may be forgiven through him and seen as righteous because of him, you see?

If you're a good person, yet you reject God reaching out to you through his son's death and resurrection, why should you spend eternity with him?
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Old 04-21-2005, 10:34 AM   #53
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Question About Christianity...

Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


But it's only the Catholic church which lays claim to apostolic succession) i.e, the part of my post you snipped in order to take the 2nd part out of context) and last I checked there was no protestant church with it's own COUNTRY !

Ex-Catholic here by the way
I saw them as two entirely different thoughts and thought they could be debated separately.
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Old 04-21-2005, 12:21 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
ZeroDude — Christ rose from the dead not because of his will power as a man, but because of the power of God. That's how God defeated death, therefore allowing us to do the same through a belief that he already did it through Christ. Does that make sense?

I understand that fine well, but that is the way I choose to perceive that event truthful or not I can apply it to my beliefs that way, I happen to look at things in a fairly strange way that maybe defies logical science and established theology and religion, but thank you for engaging in this topic with me at least, maybe I choose to come to terms with either or any side of this debate. I'm willing to take my chances and face my challenges whatever they may be, I'm a little dismayed though you seem to reckon I haven't thought about this seriously enough, believe me I had a great fear of death when I was a small child and suffered depression a few years ago. If anything I'm trying to carve out my own theology, philosophy and beliefs.
I may also seem slightly scatter brained wheen it comes to these subjects et al but I'm quite comfortable with my position.
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Old 04-21-2005, 12:48 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen

If you're a good person, yet you reject God reaching out to you through his son's death and resurrection, why should you spend eternity with him?
Why shouldn't you......Do you somehow know to whom God is going to extend grace towards?
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Old 04-21-2005, 12:53 PM   #56
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Only God can judge a man, but based on the "it doesn't matter how "good" you are nature of grace, I earnestly believe that if Ghandi knew the Gospel but rejected it, he is not with God today. Is he in hell or in the grave? I have no idea, as I don't know when hell is "enacted".
I honestly believe that God's grace can be extended to Ghandi even if he was NOT a believer in the Gospel.
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Old 04-21-2005, 01:41 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Why shouldn't you......Do you somehow know to whom God is going to extend grace towards?
I don't personally, no. However, the point I made is found many times in the Bible. That's what I'm going on there.
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Old 04-21-2005, 01:46 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeroDude


I understand that fine well, but that is the way I choose to perceive that event truthful or not I can apply it to my beliefs that way, I happen to look at things in a fairly strange way that maybe defies logical science and established theology and religion, but thank you for engaging in this topic with me at least, maybe I choose to come to terms with either or any side of this debate. I'm willing to take my chances and face my challenges whatever they may be, I'm a little dismayed though you seem to reckon I haven't thought about this seriously enough, believe me I had a great fear of death when I was a small child and suffered depression a few years ago. If anything I'm trying to carve out my own theology, philosophy and beliefs.
I may also seem slightly scatter brained wheen it comes to these subjects et al but I'm quite comfortable with my position.
I'm sorry to hear about your depression and fear of death and everything. I mean that. I went through a depression myself years ago and my wife and others I know have been through them too. I pray for the best for you.
I'm glad you have given all of this some thought and that you realize the importance of it all. Many people don't. I didn't mean to come across like I was talking down to you or didn't respect where you're at, I just like to challenge people based on what the Bible tells us. Thanks for the discussion, man.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:01 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I honestly believe that God's grace can be extended to Ghandi even if he was NOT a believer in the Gospel.
I disagree. Christ said

"No one comes to the Father but through me",

and he also said that

"I am the Resurrection and the Life, if a man believe in me, though he be dead, yet shall he live",

and

"He that believeth on him (the Son) is not condemned: but he that
believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

and

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he
that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God
abideth on him"

Now, I don't know how many chances a person is given, or if man is given one last chance the split second before he dies. God is just, and he always does what is right.

But I do know that according to the Bible, if a man has heard the Gospel and ultimately rejects it, he will not make it into the Kingom of God.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:09 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I honestly believe that God's grace can be extended to Ghandi even if he was NOT a believer in the Gospel.
In the sense that God's power is unlimited, yes He can. But, then He would be acting in a manner inconsistent with His Word.
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