Question About Christianity...

[Dreadsox]

I guess we will all have to disagree then...Respectfully of course...

Grace is not something I believe is limited to what the writers of the Gospels have believed it to mean.

That to me is the great thing about God in that repeatedly I see a pattern of mankind thinking they know the will of God, yest somehow God always seems to have other ideas in store for us.

To say that God's grace is dependant on a human being accepting it to me is wrong. \God chose people, sinners, throughout the old testamant. They did not choose God. God picked them, with all of their deficits. Again and again the story repeats itself. God chooses.

 

[verte76]

I would disagree with the assumption that Catholics "need" an intercessor. My interpretation of the difference is that Catholics have many ways of creating a relationship with God, both directly as well as through intercessors like Mary and the saints.

I agree, Jessica. Catholics have many ways of creating a relationship with God. I don't think I need an intercessor. I have a direct relationship with Jesus Christ as do my Protestant friends. Catholics do believe that the priest performs an intercessory role in consecrating the host. The biggest difference to me is how we do our worship services. A Protestant service is built around a sermon, and a Catholic service is built around the Eucharist.

 

[coemgen]

I'm not saying God doesn't extend grace to all, but salvation is different. The Bible does say he's a perfect judge and I know he meets us where we're at individually, but it's also clear how we should react to Christ's sacrifice. And that's not just found in the gospels.

You may be bothered by people thinking they know God's will, but that was, in fact, why the Bible was written — for us to know God's will for our lives on a general level.

 

[Dreadsox]

I don't personally, no. However, the point I made is found many times in the Bible. That's what I'm going on there.

You say it has happened many times without giving examples.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Why shouldn't you......Do you somehow know to whom God is going to extend grace towards?

God extends his grace to me. I have sinned many times. The fact that I have salvation is because he offered it to me free of charge. It has nothing to do with anything I have done. That's grace.

 

[Dreadsox]

I'm not saying God doesn't extend grace to all, but salvation is different. The Bible does say he's a perfect judge and I know he meets us where we're at individually, but it's also clear how we should react to Christ's sacrifice. And that's not just found in the gospels.

You may be bothered by people thinking they know God's will, but that was, in fact, why the Bible was written — for us to know God's will for our lives on a general level.

Either it was written by people who knew God's will or it waswritten by God...Which is it?

There have been PLENTY of debates throughout the history of Christianity about Grace.

There have been theories by theologians that man has no way of rejecting God's grace. There have been theories that there are different kinds of grace.

Thomism, Molinism , Augustinianism , Congruism and plenty more.

All have their own interesting theories about Grace.

All written by theologians and believers, but all different.

Point being, we do not know! But I have faith from my reading the Bible that God always throws a monkey wrench into whom GOD CHOOSES. Not always the most holy, not always the most sanctified.

God Chooses....not man.

And unfortunately, I respectfully disagree with anyone who believes that there is only one way to get to heaven, or who thinks they know the will of God.

 

[Dreadsox]

God extends his grace to me. I have sinned many times. The fact that I have salvation is because he offered it to me free of charge. It has nothing to do with anything I have done. That's grace.

Praise be.....It has NOTHING to do with any act of man which is my point.

 

[Se7en]

hopefully i make the cut. i used to be a christian, so in some circles that gets me in. *crosses fingers*

 

[coemgen]

Here you go, Dreadsox. The best example is from Christ himself in chapter 14, verse 6 of the Gospel of John, which says "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Then in 1 John 5:11-12, you have "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

These were just a couple I know off the top of my head. I can find more tonight. Now I've got 45 minutes to finish my last story.

As far as the Bible, it was written by men with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you want to say by men, you're right. If you want to say by God, you're right. It's how you look at it.

As far as salvation goes, there have been plenty of debates, but there's debates on everything. (i.e. white smoke or black?) The verses above give us a crystal clear definition of salvation. At the same time, God is just and will judge us where we're at. But for those of us who have heard of Christ and his work on the cross and all that, we have a decision to make.

 

[Se7en]

well some people think that "god is love."
they also think that "jesus is god."
so thereby we can conclude that "jesus is love."

"Love is the way and the truth and the light. No one comes to the Father except through Love."

a stretch, maybe. but interesting nonetheless.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Praise be.....It has NOTHING to do with any act of man which is my point.

That's what I've been saying all along, and it is exactly that quality - that man can do nothing to earn his way into heaven - that makes a belief in Christ absolutely necessary.

Wait, I think it just hit me.

We've come to a wall here that is probably impassable, an issue that has also been debated between Calvinists and NonCalvinists for centuries:

Does "believing in the Gospel of Jesus" constitute a work?

I say that "belief" is not a work, but rather an expression of free will, which God has given to all men.

This is a very meaty subject, dread. Very meaty, indeed.

 

[coemgen]

There's also a verse in 1 Corinthians that says "love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not selfseeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in eveil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."

No, substitute yourself for love. "I am patient, I am kind . . . I never fail."

It doesn't work.

Now substitute Jesus. "Jesus is patient, Jesus is kind . . . Jesus never fails."

It works now.

 

[Se7en]

"i am love" was not part of the logic.
"i" am not god, nor am "i" jesus.

the point was that jesus and love could be interchangable, and you highlighted that nicely.

i, or we, have nothing to do with it.

 

[Se7en]

I say that "belief" is not a work, but rather an expression of free will, which God has given to all men.

do you honestly believe in the ideal of "free will?" i, for one, do not. i don't see how it is possible for a human to make a completely objective decision about anything. the way you think, act, and talk..it's all influenced by SOMETHING. nothing of man is objective or beyond a sphere of influence.

 

[Dreadsox]

I fail to see how those verses demonstrate that God is not capable of extending grace to whomever God chooses.

respectfully, I disagree.

I thought you were saying there were examples in the Bible of good people who were going to hell.

I would say there are far more examples of people I would consider assholes shown grace.

 

[MsGiggles]

I've been to both Catholic and Protestant churches and pretty much decided I wouldn't want to be Catholic...not that I have anything against that religion...it just doesn't appeal to me.

I don't see the point in confessing "my sins" to another human?? If I need to confess, I talk to God directly...besides what if that priest just molested an innocent alter boy??? Shouldn't he be the one confessing...to the cops????

Lastly...I really liked the late Pope John. His smile never left his face and he was this grandfatherly type man. This new Pope looks like a complete goofball......and so far, have not seen him smile....

 

[Liesje]

do you honestly believe in the ideal of "free will?" i, for one, do not.

As the good little Calvinist that I am, I don't believe in free will either. I believe there IS a difference between one's "freedom" and "free will/freedom of the will".

I don't remember what Catholics believe about this.....does Catholicism acknowledge "free will"?

 

[80sU2isBest]

do you honestly believe in the ideal of "free will?" i, for one, do not. i don't see how it is possible for a human to make a completely objective decision about anything. the way you think, act, and talk..it's all influenced by SOMETHING. nothing of man is objective or beyond a sphere of influence.

We are all influenced by something, but that does not negate free will - the ability to make decisions.

I am influenced by God, but I have free will, and sadly, I disobey Him sometimes.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Free will is the power to choose, we may be influenced in our choices but that does not mean that we cannot make them or that our decisions are somehow not ours.

 

[Se7en]

clearly everyone has the ability to make decisions. but are they "free" decisions? for instance, how real is someone's ability to forsake their lifelong religion to convert to the "right" one? obviously some people have done this, but clearly their surroundings and experiences play a huge role. someone perfectly happy with their life will not be able to freely change it. for example, i don't think you would ever be converted to another religion, because your experiences do not allow for it. i was able to change my religious perspective because of events in my life that triggered different emotions and viewpoints. had my conditions remained constant, i would probably still be a christian, but as it stands, i am not and i don't think there is anything i can consciously do about it.

from a marxian perspective, our consciousness is determined by our material condition, not vice versa.

 

[Dreadsox]

All of these (Thomism, Molinism , Augustinianism , Congruism) deal with the concept of grace and free will.....

If you enjoy the topic you may wish to read up on it.

Peace

 

[Volly]

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm looking for some insight about what the most major/fundemental differences between Protestants and Catholics is...anyone?

Protestants are more of a simple people Catholics focus on man made Traditions and customs instead of what was actually stated in the Bible. Catholics manipulated the religion and turned it into a business to please man visually, not spiritually like the Bible intended it to be. The Bible says nothing about Popes are Cardinals or any of the customs they follow, but it has become so influential that people are born or converted into it without actually knowing the fundamentals or questioning there credentials. Protestants, in a nut shell, just keeps it real and humble.

 

[Dreadsox]

Re: Re: Question About Christianity...

Protestants are more of a simple people Catholics focus on man made Traditions and customs instead of what was actually stated in the Bible. Catholics manipulated the religion and turned it into a business to please man visually, not spiritually like the Bible intended it to be. The Bible says nothing about Popes are Cardinals or any of the customs they follow, but it has become so influential that people are born or converted into it without actually knowing the fundamentals or questioning there credentials. Protestants, in a nut shell, just keeps it real and humble.

Where are my boots?

This is the kind of post that makes me want to puke! Please do not let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[pax]

Volly, please careful of the generalizations you make in FYM. The majority of Catholics, keep in mind, are now in the Third World and are much poorer than most of us with the privileges of Internet access and computers. Somewhere I read that the average Catholic today is a woman of color living on less than 2 dollars a day.

Additionally, there are quite a few Catholics who post here who take their faith and spirituality quite seriously.

Thanks.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I was raised in the Protestant faith, but it's been ages since I've been involved in anything regarding that faith, and when I was there I was fairly young, so my memories of it and the rules and stuff like that are hazy, unfortunately. A good site to find out some of this stuff, though, would be religioustolerance.org -they'd definitely have a good explanation of sorts about the differences between the two.

In regards to the discussions in this thread, I have to agree with a lot of what Dread and ZeroDude are saying. I personally don't believe heaven and hell exist to begin with, I lean more towards supporting the idea of reincarnation. But if heaven did exist, I, too, don't agree with the idea of there only being one way there. I believe that, if heaven exists, so long as you have been a generally kind-hearted person throughout your life, you'd go there when all is said and done. If you disagree, that's fine. That's just my personal view on that aspect of it all.

Also, I thought God was supposed to be a mysterious figure. If he's mysterious, then how can we also know what he wants? And in regards to the talk earlier of taking a risk and gambling when it came to waiting and seeing what would happen, that could be said about any religion, as well as those who believe that nothing happens to us at all. We're all taking a gamble here.

Angela

 

[Liesje]

Also, I thought God was supposed to be a mysterious figure. If he's mysterious, then how can we also know what he wants?

I think it depends on how you view the Bible. I believe that many theologians throughout history have tried too hard to identify characteristics of God, things they could never know. However, as a Calvinist I believe in general and special revelation. General revelation means EVERYONE has access to God and God's Grace through His creation. You don't need to be "chosen" to have the Gospel forced down your throat by missionaries - it's simply there if you choose to see it. Then, there's special revelation, meaning the Holy Spirit works through the scriptures to establish a more conrete relationship with God. In John Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." To me, there is no way into God's kingdom but through accepting His grace through Jesus Christ. I believe the scriptures make this very clear.

 

[verte76]

Has anyone mentioned that we Catholics have seven books in our Old Testament that Protestants don't use? I'm no biblical scholar, but I do know what we use is called the Alexandrian canon and the Protestants use the Jerusalem canon. There are two Books of Maccbees in our Bible. Prayers for the dead and such come from 2 Maccabees 12:38-12.46.

 

[Anthony]

Volly, avoid getting ugly with religions before someone gets ugly with yours - it really won't do. Also, I would check your facts better next time.

Ant.

 

[coemgen]

I fail to see how those verses demonstrate that God is not capable of extending grace to whomever God chooses.

respectfully, I disagree.

I thought you were saying there were examples in the Bible of good people who were going to hell.

I would say there are far more examples of people I would consider assholes shown grace.

God will extend grace to whom he chooses, you're right — he's GOD. It's up to him. However, the Bible's very clear that Christ is the way to heaven.
In terms of good people going to hell, well, I think those two verses say just that (or at least it can easily be deducted from them.)

Think about this — what definition of good are we using here? Your's? Mine? How do we know good is good enough? The truth is we're all sinners, the Bible's very clear about that as well — we all fall short of God's glory. However, Christ didn't. He led the perfect life. Then he died in our place and paid the penalty of our sin, so we could have eternal life with God IF we chose it. We're only really seen as "good enough" in God's eyes through Christ. When we accept Christ as our Lord and he forgives us of our sins, then before God, we are seen as "righteous." So, in theory, there are killers who have accepted Christ, been forgiven and therefore will go to heaven. Then there will be good people, who lived good lives, but rejected God's grace through Christ, and probably won't get there. There will even be people who call themselves Christians who might not make it, becuase they haven't truly accepted Christ as Lord.

 

[nbcrusader]

If we expand God's Word beyond what is says, are we in effect creating our own god? And does that not make us equal or greater than God?