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Old 04-21-2005, 01:25 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
The differences are mostly in rhetoric and hegemony. That is, which old, arrogant clerics you will let control you and guilt you into writing them checks.

In practice, they are mostly the same. "Faith vs. good works" is mostly an anachronism, because Catholics will argue that both are needed to get to Heaven, while Protestants will argue that faith/"grace" gets you into Heaven, but will point fingers at your works and argue that you don't have enough "faith" if you don't do exactly what they tell you to do.

Same scam, different rules.

Melon

Melon continues to chug the Haterade. So thirsty!


-Miggy
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Old 04-21-2005, 07:53 AM   #32
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Question About Christianity...

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I checked there was no protestant church with it's own COUNTRY !

Vatican City can hardly be considered to be a "country" on the same level as other European countries.
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:08 AM   #33
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Melon continues to chug the Haterade. So thirsty!


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Productive post.....
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:09 AM   #34
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If faith alone will get you into heaven, there's nothing stopping a serial killer who has a great belief in God getting through those pearly gates then is there?

Of course I find this completely daft, whether we're of any denomination, religion or what else have you, good deeds hopefully are something we more than aspire too
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:18 AM   #35
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Melon continues to chug the Haterade. So thirsty!
The truth will set you free.

Melon
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:33 AM   #36
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If faith alone will get you into heaven, there's nothing stopping a serial killer who has a great belief in God getting through those pearly gates then is there?
If a serial killer truly believes and repents, then he will get to Heaven.

That's the beauty of grace. That's exactly what Bono's song is about.


Quote:
Originally posted by ZeroDude
Of course I find this completely daft, whether we're of any denomination, religion or what else have you, good deeds hopefully are something we more than aspire too
So you want to be judged according to your works? Not me. I'll take a free gift any day over worrying about if my works measure up to God's standard. How do you know you're "good" enough?

If works will get you to Heaven, why did Christ willingly go through that excrutiating pain of death on a cross? Why didn't he just say "Okay, here are the new rules. Follow these at least 3 times a day and you'll be saved"?

The answer is that man can never be "good enough" to earn his own way into heaven. That's the reason Christ died on the cross.
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:34 AM   #37
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So you want to be judged according to your works? Not me. I'll take a free gift any day over worrying about if my works measure up to God's standard. How do you know you're "good" enough?

That's a really great point, actually. Never thought about it that way before.
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:40 AM   #38
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For me it's got nothing to do with God as such, how about we all strive to be good people in general is my point?

( Yes the complexities of human nature cloud this some what but hey, we can all try )


Great notions there 80sU2isBest, cheers for explaining
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:47 AM   #39
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Striving to be good people would be considered works though, you know? I'm NOT saying we shouldn't strive to be good people, we're in fact called to, but that's not enough for God. He wants us to, like 80sU2isBest said, accept the free gift given to us through Christ's work on the cross (and subsequently, through the resurrection).
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:56 AM   #40
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Originally posted by pax


That's a really great point, actually. Never thought about it that way before.
Thanks.

Of course, as ZeroDude points out, Christians need to "strive" to do Good works. But it's not those works that save.

But even the "striving" is a little complicated, because many Christians fall into the trap of legalism; they know that grace and faith save, but in the back of their minds, they think "I need to do so and so and such and such to please God", and that turns good works into an obligatory action, rather than the natural worship experience they should be.

But teh answer is that we Christians should let go of our own efforts and trust the Holy Spirit to lead us into all good works that he wants us to do. At that point, it becomes Christ working through us, rather than us plotting the course and expecting Christ to come along for the ride.

As Paul said,

"I have been crucified with Christ; therefore, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:00 AM   #41
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But even the "striving" is a little complicated, because many Christians fall into the trap of legalism; they know that grace and faith save, but in the back of their minds, they think "I need to do so and so and such and such to please God", and that turns good works into an obligatory action, rather than the natural worship experience they should be.

But teh answer is that we Christians should let go of our own efforts and trust the Holy Spirit to lead us into all good works that he wants us to do. At that point, it becomes Christ working through us, rather than us plotting the course and expecting Christ to come along for the ride.

As Paul said,

"I have been crucified with Christ; therefore, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."
The "letting go" is the hardest part. I think it's been drilled into all of us (especially, I unfortunately suspect, Americans) that we need to have such control over everything--and I don't mean a healthy self-discipline so much as rabid, micromanagerial control over every single aspect of existence. And if we lose control of any of it, even for a moment, we've failed radically.

One of my biggest--perhaps my biggest--struggles as a Christian has been to "let go and let God." I really want to trust that when and where I (inevitably) come up short, God is leading me the rest of the way. It's really tough, though. It's always in my prayers.
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:04 AM   #42
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This leads to another thing I have a problem with, if good deeds and selfless acts ( What actually constitutes a selfless act?) are not enough to get into heaven if there is a heaven, God etc with acceptance of Christ a must, is Ghandi burning in hell?
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:06 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by pax

One of my biggest--perhaps my biggest--struggles as a Christian has been to "let go and let God." I really want to trust that when and where I (inevitably) come up short, God is leading me the rest of the way. It's really tough, though. It's always in my prayers.
Me too.

One thing that has really helped me is that I keep myself consistently aware that when I "try on my own", I always lose control of the situation. For example, I used to be a very manipulative person; if things didn't go the way I thought they should, I'd try to manipulate people into it. However, now I understand that situations are always best when left in God's hands.

Also, I think it imperative to concentrate on the verse:

"I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me".

I think that once we really see ourselves as vessels that contain the Holy Spirit, with the nature of Christ to work through us, the "letting go of our own miserable efforts" part comes more easily, and we learn to trust the guidance of Holy Spirit.
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:14 AM   #44
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This leads to another thing I have a problem with, if good deeds and selfless acts ( What actually constitutes a selfless act?) are not enough to get into heaven if there is a heaven, God etc with acceptance of Christ a must, is Ghandi burning in hell?
Only God can judge a man, but based on the "it doesn't matter how "good" you are nature of grace, I earnestly believe that if Ghandi knew the Gospel but rejected it, he is not with God today. Is he in hell or in the grave? I have no idea, as I don't know when hell is "enacted".

But I don't think of hell as punishment. That is where we all were bound, not because God sends us there as punishment but because it spiritually impossible for God to abide in the presence of sin/imperfection. Thats' what coming to Christ does; it "cleans up" your spirit - it makes your spirit perfect so that your spirit can abide with God. I'm not saying a Christian is perfect in the flesh, and never sins. I'm saying that a Christian's spirit has been perfected.
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:19 AM   #45
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Fair enough, I'm just interested to see your take on it, I have my own conceptions about God and other spiritual matters although in the end we'll know the truth or not know at all due to us all ceasing to exist.
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