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Old 07-18-2008, 08:12 PM   #16
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i've consistantly said that quebec should be removed from canada, and then perhaps conquered by force at a later date, by the queen's armed forces. preferably with a little help from a few british armoured divisions just for old time's sake.

McCartney's free Quebec concert ruffles sovereigntists

"Several prominent Quebec artists and sovereigntists are complaining about Paul McCartney's highly anticipated concert this coming weekend, accusing the former Beatle of "Canadianizing" the city's 400th birthday celebration."

and

McCartney tells Quebec nationalists to smoke 'the pipes of peace'

"His sovereigntist critics argue he shouldn't be playing such a prominent show in Quebec City because it would be too reminiscent of the battle between his native Britain and the French in Quebec in the 1750s."

it's funny... when people say they want to keep their british heritage alive and well in english canada, they get called every fucking thing from fascist to, yes, unpatriotic.

i realise not all quebecers share their POV, but when will enough be enough? give them one more vote in two years time, and let it be the final - FINAL vote on the matter. if they vote to leave, help them get the fuck out ASAP. just don't allow them to use our currency, and give them their share of the national debt that they'll owe.

it's comical how canada's head of state wasn't invited to quebec city's 400th anniversary, while the heads of states of every former french colony has been issued an invite.

give them their country that they want, then slap visa/letter of invitation requirements for entering canada. furthermore, economic sanctions must be imposed that make those currently placed against countries such as north korea and iran look like the equivalent of mummy and daddy withholding one week's worth of allowance when you were a child.

Separatism in Quebec, for the most part, is a declining force. This issue with McCartney is a non-story, really, meant to get a few people's names in the news. A few extremists, sensing the coming media frenzy, decided to speak on the matter, knowing the media storm it would cause.

But remember, these people are in the minority. There are also many separatists who have spoken up in favour of having Paul McCartney (for the record, Coldplay was once said to have signed to play this concert and there were rumblings that U2 was being courted) do this show.

Don't give us the country that we want, because we don't want it. We have a federalist provincial Premier who, thanks to a shift in policy and a much better job in communicating said policy, is more popular than ever and may be elected to a third term in the near future. The people that keep espousing sovereignty are the same ones and popularity for the movement has remained stagnant and has even waned in recent years.

This is much ado about nothing.

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All we are saying is give Paul a chance
The Gazette
Friday, July 18, 2008

It can be safely predicted even now that a British knight will take Quebec City by storm on Sunday. That's when Sir Paul McCartney will unleash what promises to be the rockingest show the storied Plains of Abraham have seen since the one staged at the same venue by generals named Wolfe and Montcalm.

That's a joke, OK? But it seems some people take the McCartney-Wolfe connection very seriously indeed.

By some people we mean the few dozen separatists, including two Parti Québécois front- benchers, Pierre Curzi and Daniel Turp, who have worked themselves into a froth of indignation over the former Beatle's big show.

These zealots even cranked up a petition alleging that Quebec's 400th-anniversary celebration, of which the McCartney show is a towering highlight, is being blighted by the prominence being accorded to what they call an "Anglo-Saxon idol."

"We can never erase that we were conquered by the British," said sculptor Luc Archambault, the petition instigator. So much, we guess, for Paul's old bandmate's sentiment, "Give peace a chance."

The protest certainly hasn't put McCartney and his band on the run, nor do we suspect it's likely to discourage many of the expected crowd of up to 200,000.

Paul's mission, he said in a Radio-Canada interview, is strictly friendly. "I want to give those people the best night of their lives."

As for General Wolfe, McCartney claimed to have remembered him from history-exam questions, but said still hasn't quite figured out exactly who he was. And Sir Paul assured the interviewer that of course he would speak some French. (He would not, however, promise to sing Michelle (ma belle). Still, it wouldn't surprise us if he did.

Even more reassuring was the overwhelming ridicule heaped on this stillborn protest in francophone quarters. "Would they ban Shakespeare because he's English?" wondered leading Quebec songwriter (and avowed sovereignist) Stéphane Venne. He went on to lecture the petition people, noting that McCartney is an artist whose appeal and influence transcend borders and ethnic lines. Venne added that he and many prominent Quebec musicians have drawn inspiration from him.

Philippe Navarro, a former PQ political staffer and now a full-time musician, pointed out that what really decided the fate of Quebec was not the Battle of the Plains in 1759, but France's decision four years later to give up Quebec in a trade for Guadeloupe - an outcome that would probably have been the same had Montcalm won the battle.

The only thing being tarnished here is the image of the PQ and the sovereignist movement when prominent figures in its ranks indulge in such ludicrous displays of nationalist pique. Curzi and Turp really should know better than to stoop to this. They're making it bad, mostly for themselves.
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BoMac is gonna love the title...
It certainly is amusing.
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Old 07-18-2008, 09:59 PM   #17
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Interesting to see anything Canadian stirring up emotion in anyone. Is anyone here actually Canadian?
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Old 07-19-2008, 09:59 AM   #18
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Good lord.

This whole ordeal was caused by a handful of people, and does not represent Quebec at all. It's a shame that this non-story was amplified by the media to this extent. Believe me, it will be nearly impossible to get into that show tomorrow, for there will be tens of thousands of people lining up to see one of the greatest songwriters in pop music history.

The independance movement is indeed a declining force - a great majority of Quebecers don't want independance. However, I wouldn't even equate this non-event with the independance movement, rather with the sheer narrow-mindedness of a bunch of very vocal people.
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Old 07-19-2008, 10:33 AM   #19
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The independance movement is indeed a declining force - a great majority of Quebecers don't want independance.
I think English Canada will find it hard to believe this, as long as the PQ keeps on getting elected. They are, by definition, a separatist party, yes?

And, sure, I do understand it's a bit more complicated than that, with issues of protest votes and questions as to whether the other three viable parties at the federal level can represent Québec's interests. Hell, I question whether they can viably represent English Canadian interests!
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Old 07-19-2008, 10:42 AM   #20
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I should say "considerable majority" rather than "great majority". According to recent polls, if a referendum were held today, Québec would remain within Canada by a 10-12% margin, give or take.

Polls in the last 3-4 years give 30-35% of the vote to the PQ.
In the last election, the PQ ranked 3rd, with 25% of the vote (roughly).

They will probably fare much better in the next election, however, due to their new leader.

Nevertheless, one thing must not be forgotten: a vote for the PQ is not necessarily a vote for independence. I know loads of people who vote for the PQ since it is the only major left-leaning party in Québec. These same people also reject independence.

Conversely, a vote for the right-wing ADQ is not necessarily a federalist vote.

But all in all, I really doubt that separatism will go anywhere.
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Old 07-19-2008, 10:57 AM   #21
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I re-read your post and saw that you confused the Parti Québécois (PQ) with the Bloc Québécois (BQ). The former is on the provincial level (see my previous post), the latter on the federal level.

Both parties advocate Québec independence.

However:

The BQ is an even worse measure of the separatist movement in Québec. Voting for the BQ is a very safe vote, since the party will never have full powers and will thus never have the opportunity to propose a referendum on independence, unlike the PQ.

The share of protest votes alloted to the BQ is surprisingly high. People vote for them either because they are separatist themselves, because they don't like the other three major parties at that moment (a considerable share of the Liberal vote was shifted to the BQ following the sponsorship scandal), or because they feel that the BQ helps shift the power to the left in the house of commons (the NDP would also do this, but they are rather unknown in Québec, really).

Québec voters are strange.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:37 AM   #22
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Nevertheless, one thing must not be forgotten: a vote for the PQ is not necessarily a vote for independence. I know loads of people who vote for the PQ since it is the only major left-leaning party in Québec. These same people also reject independence.
I understand this. I question whether many other people outside Québec understand this, if only because of "guilt by association." Thus, we periodically get these articles in the media questioning the loyalty of Québec to the rest of Canada.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:45 AM   #23
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Thus, we periodically get these articles in the media questioning the loyalty of Québec to the rest of Canada.
Which is quite understandable. A large amount of Quebecers don't really "feel" Canadian. This includes separatists, but also a fraction of the people who reject independence for other motives such as the alleged economic impacts.

(Not my case, though. I feel very Canadian. And Québécois, too.)
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Old 07-19-2008, 01:25 PM   #24
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I think English Canada will find it hard to believe this, as long as the PQ keeps on getting elected. They are, by definition, a separatist party, yes?

And, sure, I do understand it's a bit more complicated than that, with issues of protest votes and questions as to whether the other three viable parties at the federal level can represent Québec's interests. Hell, I question whether they can viably represent English Canadian interests!
No, not really.

The PQ has been a party of ebb and flow, and they tend to do well in Quebec when the the people get sick of the Liberals or there is some kind of Liberal scandal in progress. Then you see the PQ rise and the Conservatives grab a handful of predictable seats. I don't think that there is a general feeling in English Canada that the continued election of ___ seats of the PQ really reflects separatist sentiment.
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Old 07-20-2008, 07:32 PM   #25
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where is your god now, financeguy?
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:14 PM   #26
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Only a small group of Separatists complained about his presence. Apparently, the concert was a huge success, so you shouldn't overstate the discontent of a few.

However, Sir Paul was an odd choice to lead the Quebec City 400th anniversary celebrations. First, he's an Anglophone. Second, he's English, the very people who conquered Quebec. Bad optics, that's all.
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Old 07-21-2008, 12:09 AM   #27
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My mom just flew to Quebec this afternoon, and says the concert was awesome, regardless of the politics.
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Old 07-22-2008, 10:46 AM   #28
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People need to stop whining about politics and conflicts that happened hundreds of years ago or go back to being voyagers trading with the Indians.
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:09 PM   #29
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My personal opinion, so don't kill me. The Quebec issue is never going to end, ever. Who won the bloody war anyway? This question is pointless and the people that are for Quebec sovereignty are never going to be on the same team as the rest of the country. Perhaps it's time they leave. Sorry, it's the way I feel and I'm not alone with this sentiment here in Vancouver.

In regards to Canada, my Queen represents her subjects and subjects that are proud of it's institution and what binds us together. The amazing thing is, the Queen of Canada represents everyone single person in an unbiased and apolitical way and that even serves those that are against it. That's pretty cool isn't it? Not something you would see in partisan politics. Constitutional monarchy, until there is a better system, I find, is the way to go. If Quebec doesn't want to be a part of this very successful and modern system, then, off you go. Good luck.
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:34 PM   #30
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Constitutional monarchy, until there is a better system, I find, is the way to go. If Quebec doesn't want to be a part of this very successful and modern system, then, off you go. Good luck.
Constitutional monarchy...fine, but why choose a foreign queen then? I have said before, why should it not be one that can actually trace their roots from the region, rather than a foreign invader (of, I believe, Germanic origin).

Imperialism is not something I understand or have any sympathy for.
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