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Old 07-13-2007, 10:18 AM   #46
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Are you aware those animals (pigs, cows etc) are bred, paid for and raised at someone elses expense for one purpose only and not so you can go down to Petco and pick one out for you to take on walks around the neighborhood ?
Does it matter? Aren't those pigs, cows, etc. animals too? What if I was cruel to my dog by not feeding it or by cutting off tips of its ear and tail (which happens to meat animals) or letting it live in filth and disease? Why would I be criminally punished for doing these things when I "own" the dog and paid for it fair in square? If I ever cut a piece of my dogs ear or tail off in order to mark that it is my dog, everyone would think I am a psycho and a horrible person, but these kind of things happen to meat animals every single day with no regulation.

It doesn't matter if a pet owner or a meat producer is buying dogs, cats, pigs, cows, chickens or whatever. They are all animals and should all be treated in a humane way. At this point I am not even arguing whether it is moral to eat meat or not, I am just saying that if you are going to produce meat, at least prevent let the animals from suffering in their life before they are killed.
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:32 AM   #47
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Originally posted by hawkman


No one keeps the workers in the plants against their will as "forced to endure" might imply
those jobs prevent them from taking breaks. those jobs prevent them from receiving necessary medical treatment.

and for some people, those are the only jobs available in the area. just by saying "well they don't have to work there" isn't holding the meat packing industry accountable.
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:34 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


Does it matter? Aren't those pigs, cows, etc. animals too? What if I was cruel to my dog by not feeding it or by cutting off tips of its ear and tail (which happens to meat animals) or letting it live in filth and disease? Why would I be criminally punished for doing these things when I "own" the dog and paid for it fair in square? If I ever cut a piece of my dogs ear or tail off in order to mark that it is my dog, everyone would think I am a psycho and a horrible person, but these kind of things happen to meat animals every single day with no regulation.

It doesn't matter if a pet owner or a meat producer is buying dogs, cats, pigs, cows, chickens or whatever. They are all animals and should all be treated in a humane way. At this point I am not even arguing whether it is moral to eat meat or not, I am just saying that if you are going to produce meat, at least prevent let the animals from suffering in their life before they are killed.


I take it you have never heard of a puppy mill. Do some research on puppy mills. Lots of people treat their dogs that way.
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:51 AM   #49
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I take it you have never heard of a puppy mill. Do some research on puppy mills. Lots of people treat their dogs that way.
Yes I have heard of them and they are cruel. But the point I am trying to make is that what we see as horrible and cruel to be done to our pets is perfectly acceptable when it applies to non pets. Whether it is starvation or filth or cutting pieces of the ear/tail/horns or leaving burns on the skin, all of these things happen regularly while they are all illegal to do to pets. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy that animal cruelty against pets is illegal, but i'm just saying that, why is it okay to do something to a cow that is not okay to do to a dog?

And puppy mills are very sick and horrible too. The female dogs are forced into repeated pregnancies in order to make profit for the mill owners. Much like the pigs in slaughterhouses are forced into continuous pregnancies and how chickens are forced to lay eggs.

What makes me mad is that the state of Kansas passed a law to protect puppy mill owners by making it a felony to photograph puppy mills or its facilities. I guess the puppy mill owners don't want to show anybody how cruel their practicies are.

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Old 07-13-2007, 12:05 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by hawkman

Veal Piccatta......yum!


okay, you know what? i eat meat. i enjoy it. i don't have a problem with using animals for food. i think people are different than animals, so i don't think it's immoral or wrong or anything. there are many aspects to the meat industry which are contemptible, so it's incumbent upon us as consumers of meat to purchase the most ethical meat we can. if that means pay a few more dollars for free range chickens or cows that were fed a vegetarian diet, so be it.

but what is totally unhelpful is mocking vegetarians. mock bad information or propaganda, but please understand that most vegetarians are operating from a place of compassion and talking about how delicious little animals are isn't going to get you anywhere and it will just make the vegetarian that much more convinced that meat eaters are simply cruel.

my sister is a very intense vegetarian. to the point where it makes meals with her almost unpleasant. there's some respect that she needs to work on, but the absolute worst thing i could do would be to tell her about how much i loved to eat baby animals and just how delicious that beautiful fish is going to taste once i've gutted it and sliced off its pointy fish head.

a little respect on both sides goes a long way, especially on an issue like this. i think it's inarguable that being a vegetarian is good for the planet, and that it is an act of compassion to choose to not eat animals. however, a vegetarian should also realize that humans eat meat, they have always eaten meat, and there are some health risks incurred whene one chooses not to eat meat, and that animals and people are different.

if you don't want to be a vegetarian, that's perfectly fine. but mocking people who are vegetarian is just about the worst way to go about it.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:11 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




okay, you know what? i eat meat. i enjoy it. i don't have a problem with using animals for food. i think people are different than animals, so i don't think it's immoral or wrong or anything. there are many aspects to the meat industry which are contemptible, so it's incumbent upon us as consumers of meat to purchase the most ethical meat we can. if that means pay a few more dollars for free range chickens or cows that were fed a vegetarian diet, so be it.

but what is totally unhelpful is mocking vegetarians. mock bad information or propaganda, but please understand that most vegetarians are operating from a place of compassion and talking about how delicious little animals are isn't going to get you anywhere and it will just make the vegetarian that much more convinced that meat eaters are simply cruel.

my sister is a very intense vegetarian. to the point where it makes meals with her almost unpleasant. there's some respect that she needs to work on, but the absolute worst thing i could do would be to tell her about how much i loved to eat baby animals and just how delicious that beautiful fish is going to taste once i've gutted it and sliced off its pointy fish head.

a little respect on both sides goes a long way, especially on an issue like this. i think it's inarguable that being a vegetarian is good for the planet, and that it is an act of compassion to choose to not eat animals. however, a vegetarian should also realize that humans eat meat, they have always eaten meat, and there are some health risks incurred whene one chooses not to eat meat, and that animals and people are different.

if you don't want to be a vegetarian, that's perfectly fine. but mocking people who are vegetarian is just about the worst way to go about it.
My point exactly. Thanks for understanding.

About the health risks, that is a very controversial topic. Some people say that eating meat causes health risks while others say that avoiding meat causes health risks.

I am not an expert, but I do know that there are certain foods out there, whether vegetarian or nonvegetarian that are harmful to our body. And I also know that my whole family, including my cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents have been vegetarians their whole lives. My one grandma is closing in on 80 years of age and her health is great, she lives by herself, she cooks, shops, does everything without the help of her kids. My other grandma lived until the age of 85 and she died peacefully in her sleep and she was healthy also. The rest of my family is just like a typical family, there are a few health problems here and there, but we all have overall healthy lives.

I'm not saying that if you are vegetarian then you automatically are healthier than everyone else, but what i'm saying is that you can definitely be healthy while being vegetarian as long as you have a balanced diet. I know that people think that to be vegetarian it is hard to get protein in your diet. But there are many sources where you can get protein, one of my favorite is taco beans which I love. The PETA website does have vegetarian and vegan meal plans if anyone is interested.

By the way, I suggest that you try Taco Bell food with beans instead of beef, it is so good, I even have a couple of non-vegetarain friends who eat Taco Bell food with beans instead of beef. Very tasty.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:35 PM   #52
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Other than the fact that meat was obtained by murdering a living thing which IMO was not put on this earth for that purpose I am frightened by the amount of antibiotics, steroids and chemicals that are pumped into livestock.

The latest is this talk of giving cows some sort of drug that will decrease their "emission levels" and genetically engineering some sort of cow that will apparently not pass as much gas.

Does anyone else not find this even a little disturbing?
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:36 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98

Does it matter? Aren't those pigs, cows, etc. animals too?

Of course it matters, they wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for the consumer demand they die
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:38 PM   #54
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Originally posted by unico


those jobs prevent them from taking breaks. those jobs prevent them from receiving necessary medical treatment.

and for some people, those are the only jobs available in the area. just by saying "well they don't have to work there" isn't holding the meat packing industry accountable.
Meat Packing industry, like any other, is covered by labor laws.

if the problem exists, it is due to the business owners, not the TYPE of business

Which areas ONLY have meat-packing jobs availabe ?
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:39 PM   #55
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Originally posted by Irvine511




okay, you know what? i eat meat. i enjoy it.

like I said, Veal Piccatta, Yum.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:40 PM   #56
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Originally posted by hawkman



Of course it matters, they wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for the consumer demand they die
So the fact that the consumer demands that they die makes it ok?
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:40 PM   #57
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Originally posted by hawkman



like I said, Veal Piccatta, Yum.


i don't eat Veal.
i don't eat foie gras.
i don't eat Smithfield products.

why?

because there are ethical ways of consuming, and unethical ways of consuming.

but continue to mock. you'll win lots of friends and influence so many vegetarians.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:41 PM   #58
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By the way, I just looked it up and a vegetarian diet lowers the risk of: Colon Cancer, High Blood Cholestoral, High Blood Pressure, Prostate Cancer and Stroke.

At the same time vegetarians and vegans must be aware of their food intake and should have a properly balanced diet or else they get reduced levels of calcium, iodine, vitamins B12 and D.

So I think a properly managed vegetarian diet is a healthy one.

And speaking of food, if anyone is interested in trying some good vegetarian food, you are welcome to ask me, I will give you some good recipes as well as some good foods you can buy from the supermarket.

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Old 07-13-2007, 02:44 PM   #59
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Of course it matters, they wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for the consumer demand they die
Maybe you should re-read this statement and consider deleting your post.

If it weren't for the consumer demand, we wouldn't be breeding them and they would naturally reproduce instead of being forced to.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:51 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98
By the way, I just looked it up and a vegetarian diet lowers the risk of: Colon Cancer, High Blood Cholestoral, High Blood Pressure, Prostate Cancer and Stroke.

At the same time vegetarians and vegans must be aware of their food intake and should have a properly balanced diet or else they get reduced levels of calcium, iodine, vitamins B12 and D.

So I think a properly managed vegetarian diet is a healthy one.
Any properly managed diet is a healthy one. It's when it's not managed that things start to go haywire. Humans have evolved to the point where we're best suited to be omnivores. Our intestines are shorter than true herbivores and longer than those those of carnivores. This reflects the differene in the time that digestion takes. So for me, it's healthier to eat both meat and veggies than it is to eat one over the other.
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