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Old 02-19-2007, 04:00 AM   #16
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Rent the 1977 movie Oh God with George Burns. God takes the stand there as well.

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God: I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me me.
I would call Adam & Eve and ask them if there was any suffering, pain, death or evil on Earth before THEY choose to sin, thusly distorting and disfiguring God's creation.

Then call Paul and show the jury exhibit A. The thorn in his side. (The jury will each see something different but that's OK) Paul will testify that he prayed it be removed but that the Lord answered
"My grace is sufficient for you" and "My strength is made perfect in weakness." The meaning of which, should be clear.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:39 AM   #17
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Originally posted by Ormus


We wouldn't know virtue without evil. And, as I have posited before, "good" cannot exist without the presence of "evil," because we define "good" based on the reference of "evil." And, likewise, vice versa.


Is "Good's" existence dependent upon "evil?"
If your answer is no, then your post is irrelevant; if your answer is yes, then you'll want to rethink your belief that God created everything - if God is good, how could he have existed before the existence of evil?
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:47 AM   #18
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Hypothetically then, if God is not to blame for the bad things, then there is also no need for gratitude or praise for the good. Free will encompasses both.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Philosophy could also be tried. I'd suggest you have it up next.

This is the second thread to make me think of the movie The Man who Sued God. The gist is a guy's boat (he's played by Billy Connolly) is destroyed when a storm blows through, and as a result he has nowhere to live. His insurance policy states it wont cover 'acts of God'. He naturally doesn't accept this and takes them to trial demanding the insurer proves that God exists - after all, they must have proof of the existance of such a God if their underwriters can put it in a legally binding document, right? So then the insurer has to get the church to prove God exists - which they naturally cannot do, and they get mighty pissed off. The insurance company look like giant arseholes because not only can none of them prove God exists, but they also cannot prove the storm which sunk his boat was because of God, either.

The movie will leave you with endless open-ended questions, and for me it was largely that humans place God and God concepts in things which are entirely a human construct and then we battle when it fails to meet what we set out for it. Take your average insurance policy of old which was underwritten to exclude Acts of God. Take world disasters. We all blame God, yet we can't actually humanly come to terms with it so easily. We introduced the idea - there's nothing in the bible about God fucking around with our lives for [insert reason here]. We get angry and blame an existance of, or use Him to justify something, but really, should we? Especially when there never has been one scrap of proof. We base so much on faith. A non tangible idea.

...I've changed my mind. can you suggest putting humankind on trial next? We're a bit thick, really. It's about time we answered to someone.
One of the best aussie flicks!
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet
Is "Good's" existence dependent upon "evil?"
What's "good" is dependent on the ability for one to choose that action. If a robot does a beneficial deed, we would not call it "good," because we'd say that it's doing exactly what it's programmed to do. It would then be a "neutral" deed. In a world of choice, "good" cannot exist without "evil."

Likewise, not all deeds that are "good" on the surface have a "good" motivation. Would charity work for the sake of personal fame, recognition, and tax breaks qualify as a "good" deed or a selfish, "evil" deed?

Quote:
If your answer is no, then your post is irrelevant; if your answer is yes, then you'll want to rethink your belief that God created everything - if God is good, how could he have existed before the existence of evil?
Well, if we wish to go beyond Christianity for a moment, religions like the Advaita Vedanta school of Hinduism (FYI, Hinduism is so diverse that it's hard to generalize, so I tend to pick the school of thought I'm most familiar with) don't believe in "evil." Misery is the result of ignorance, and their supreme "Godhead," Brahman, is an infinitely formless being that simultaneously makes up the entire universe and nature, while also transcending existence.

So, basically, in this example, "evil" is not a supernatural creation, but a man-made construction. And, indeed, how we define terms like "good," "evil," "sin," and "perfection" are in strictly human terms. Knowing that humanity does not have infinite knowledge and understanding, can we make the logical leap to say that "God" has the same definitions of "good," "evil," "sin," and "perfection" as we do?
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus


What's "good" is dependent on the ability for one to choose that action. If a robot does a beneficial deed, we would not call it "good," because we'd say that it's doing exactly what it's programmed to do. It would then be a "neutral" deed. In a world of choice, "good" cannot exist without "evil."

Likewise, not all deeds that are "good" on the surface have a "good" motivation. Would charity work for the sake of personal fame, recognition, and tax breaks qualify as a "good" deed or a selfish, "evil" deed?



Well, if we wish to go beyond Christianity for a moment, religions like the Advaita Vedanta school of Hinduism (FYI, Hinduism is so diverse that it's hard to generalize, so I tend to pick the school of thought I'm most familiar with) don't believe in "evil." Misery is the result of ignorance, and their supreme "Godhead," Brahman, is an infinitely formless being that simultaneously makes up the entire universe and nature, while also transcending existence.

So, basically, in this example, "evil" is not a supernatural creation, but a man-made construction. And, indeed, how we define terms like "good," "evil," "sin," and "perfection" are in strictly human terms. Knowing that humanity does not have infinite knowledge and understanding, can we make the logical leap to say that "God" has the same definitions of "good," "evil," "sin," and "perfection" as we do?
I obviously mislabled your philosophy. My apologies.

Just to be an arse, I'm going to articulate a Cartesian argument about perfection and God.

After proving that he exists, (cogito ergo sum) Descartes is left in a position that only he exists - or at least he is a mind, or has a mind. To move forward, Descartes thinks about a god, or God. Generally, he articulates, God is described as the perfect being. Now, this concept of "perfection" either comes from my mind or somewhere else, he reasons. Since Descartes believes he is imperfect, this notion must come from a source outside of his mind. In other words, the concept "perfect being" must come from a source outside his mind. Therefore, God exists.
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