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Old 09-07-2004, 01:10 PM   #16
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Whatever happens was brought on themselves by the disgraceful terrorist attacks
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Old 09-07-2004, 01:23 PM   #17
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And by "them" you mean everybody in Chechnya? Would it be fair to say that what happened in Beslan was brought on themselves by Russian behaviour in Chechnya?
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Old 09-07-2004, 01:26 PM   #18
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I knew that was coming. I'm leaving before I get into a fight and have to hear anyone start whining about the 'innocent' Chechens while the bodies of those tortured Russian kids aren't even cold yet

I hope ALEXRUS and Aine will tell us more about what their country has been suffering.

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Old 09-07-2004, 01:43 PM   #19
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On both sides of this conflict innocent people have suffered and guilty people have behaved disgracefully. I don't see why it's so hard to understand that you can't stereotype a whole country or people and say the entire group deserves whatever will happen to them. There are children in Chechnya too you know.
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Old 09-07-2004, 01:45 PM   #20
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Do you really expect everybody to just sit there and take whatever terrorists do and them not do anything in retaliation because they're afraid they might 'hurt somebody?' People have to learn that their actions are not without consequences. People without mercy and respect for life cannot expect anyone to bestow such considerations on them. If anyone in their country suffers, THEY caused it with their terrorist acts.


There is NO comparison between collateral damage in a war and the intentional horrors that were inflicted on those children in that school in Russia. And I don't want to talk about it I'm trying to behave.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:07 PM   #21
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Nothing, absolutely nothing can justify the targetting of innocent people, especially children. But calling the attrocities comitted by elements of the Russian army in Chechnya "collateral damage" is so wrong that it's almost funny.

As I said, people on both sides have been misbehaving. The risking of innocent lives while trying to protect other innocent lives can sometimes not be avoided, however, accepting whatever action someone will take is, to put it mildly, not very wise. Especially when that someone is Putin.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:08 PM   #22
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Let's everyone take a deep breath here. People have valid points and getting overly emotional about this will solve nothing.

Okay?
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:41 PM   #23
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I'd have no problems negotiating with child-killers if I thought it could save lives, even though I doubt these people had terms I would accept. Putin makes it sound like it's a matter of principle. Principles like these get people killed
I am sorry but that is arguably the most dangerous plan of action when dealing with terrorists. The purpose of terrorism is to achieve a politcal end. If you capitulate then they will only come back and attempt something more audacious and in the end more people will be killed. Negotiating with terrorists strengthens them and their ability to inflict serious pain and suffering on others - any state that capitulates is in some way responsible for the next attack.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:52 PM   #24
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Who's talking about capitulating or giving in to their terms? As I said, I doubt they had terms I would accept but I would at least have started talks with them. Lie to them, woo (sp?) them, say whatever you have to say to save as many people as you can. Not even opening up a dialogue is not a smart move.
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Old 09-07-2004, 05:44 PM   #25
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Lets remember that Russia did not let the Republics go back in 1991. Back then it was the Soviet Union and that government was dissolved after the failed coup attempt. Russia, Ukraine and Belarus mutually declared their independence. The other Republics followed. Most of the former Soviet Republics that are now countries are democratic, at least to some degree. In light of that fact, I don't think people in Chechnya have a right to independence since they live in a democracy. Also what about Russian and other ethnic groups who live in Chechnya and do not want it to become and independent muslim state? What about their rights?

Chechens would have been far better off if that had worked to help strenthen Russia's democracy rather than attack it in order to form some fundamentalist muslim state and essentially enslaving Russians and others who live in Chechnya. Russia is a democracy and it makes no sense even if Chechnya thinks they have a right to independence to go about it in a violent way. Unless there were serious violations of Chechen rights or they were denied something that other's in Russia received, I don't think they have a legitimate claim to independence.
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Old 09-07-2004, 09:46 PM   #26
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I know this might be um...pounced on and I in NO WAY condone what happended. And I don't agree in the use of terrorism obvoiously. But why is it that Russia just won't let Chechnya have thier own ethnic independence?
Simply put--oil.

There is an oil pipeline that runs from Kazakstan through Chechnya to Russia.

If Russians give Chechens independence, they lose control of the pipeline. Naturally, the Chechens *want* control, as they don't exactly have anything else to build an economy on.

Chechnya also has about an 80% Russian population, who want to stay tied to Russia and vice versa.
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Old 09-07-2004, 09:57 PM   #27
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Chechens would have been far better off if that had worked to help strenthen Russia's democracy rather than attack it in order to form some fundamentalist muslim state and essentially enslaving Russians and others who live in Chechnya. Russia is a democracy and it makes no sense even if Chechnya thinks they have a right to independence to go about it in a violent way. Unless there were serious violations of Chechen rights or they were denied something that other's in Russia received, I don't think they have a legitimate claim to independence.
I think you are making some really sweeping claims here.

America believed it had a right to independence, too. Is a revolution considered a peaceful way? What made the other Soviet republics deserving of independence? There were Russians living in Estonia too when it declared independence, and they were summarily kicked out of the country.

Russia is a democracy, but the recent elections in Chechnya were a joke. Why would you want to "strengthen" democracy in a country that makes a mockery of your presidential elections?

I would call depriving the capital city of Grozny electricity and running water denying Chechens their rights. There have been horrible atrocities committed against the civilian population.

I haven't read anything about them wanting to build a fundamentalist Muslim state. From what I gather, most Chechen nationalists want a democratic, secular state. They've made alot of noise about "the killing of Muslim brothers" but not about casting out infidels.

I am certainly not apologizing for Chechen terrorism. I find what they have done to the Russian civilians reprehensible. *Neither* side has sought enough of a diplomatic solution to satisfy me.
But to make such generalizations is very misleading.
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Old 09-07-2004, 11:04 PM   #28
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I think you are making some really sweeping claims here.

America believed it had a right to independence, too. Is a revolution considered a peaceful way? What made the other Soviet republics deserving of independence? There were Russians living in Estonia too when it declared independence, and they were summarily kicked out of the country.

Russia is a democracy, but the recent elections in Chechnya were a joke. Why would you want to "strengthen" democracy in a country that makes a mockery of your presidential elections?

I would call depriving the capital city of Grozny electricity and running water denying Chechens their rights. There have been horrible atrocities committed against the civilian population.

I haven't read anything about them wanting to build a fundamentalist Muslim state. From what I gather, most Chechen nationalists want a democratic, secular state. They've made alot of noise about "the killing of Muslim brothers" but not about casting out infidels.

I am certainly not apologizing for Chechen terrorism. I find what they have done to the Russian civilians reprehensible. *Neither* side has sought enough of a diplomatic solution to satisfy me.
But to make such generalizations is very misleading.
I'm not making generalizations. The United States had a right to independence from England because they had no representation in London and had taxes and laws passed against them without having any say in the matter. Under such circumstances, as well as other things that followed, armed revolution is justified.

Chechnya was NOT a republic of the former Soviet Union. The Soviet government collapsed in 1991 and the only other governments that existed were the local governments of each of the 15 Republics. They all agreed mutually to have independence. Chechnya was a province of the Russian republic.

There are still Russians living in Estonia right now, and it was wrong for any Estonians to pressure any Russians out of the country. I do not think the government of Estonia approved of that action. They certainly had a right to get Russian troops off their territory though.

Prior to 1994, I do not see how Chechens were treated any differently than Russians or other ethnic groups living in the "Russian Republic". Because of that fact as well as the fact that Russia was becoming a democracy, I do not think the Chechens had a right to declare independence and to use violence to attack Russians.

Chechnya is a mess now, but it was not that way prior to the fall of 1994. Russian democracy is not perfect, but its far better than the Communist dictatorship that the country had prior to this. Democracy takes time to develop, and revolting at this point only weakens that process and only makes things worse for Chechen civilians. The standard of living and opportunities for the average Chechen would be far better today if they had not tried to go for independence in 1994.

Electricity and Running Water often gets cut off in many area's all over Russia. It is difficult to determine what attrocities have been committed by Russians considering the fact that the Chechens choose to fight often in the cities, making unintended civilian losses enevitable. The deteriation of the Russian military since the end of the Soviet Union has contributed to these difficulties as well. A less experienced and less well trained force, is going to make more mistakes.

The Chechens declared independence in 1994 when none of these problems existed. It was prior to the war.

There was a brief pause in the war from 1996 to 1999. In the fall of 1999, Chechens began attacking neighboring Russian communities outside of Chechnya. That prompted the Russians to go back in. This and other things have convinced me that the Chechen movement is really and fundamentalist Islamic movement aimed at spreading control through the surrounding area as well as achieving full independence. Members of Al Quada and other terrorist groups have fought in Chechnya.

The fact is, Chechnya belongs to the Russian Federation in the same way that New Jersey belongs to the United States. The difficulties that Chechens in Chechnya experience come from the war which was started by the Chechens. Because Russia is a democracy and I do not see people in Chechnya being denied certain rights others in the Russian Federation had prior to them declaring independence, I do not think they have grounds to form an independent state.
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Old 09-07-2004, 11:57 PM   #29
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The Chechans right to self-determination must be measured against the violence used to this end.

Having said that we must also acknowledge the sheer brutality shown by the Russians in crushing their enemies.

Razing downtown Grozny does not excuse murdering innocent children and visa versa.
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Old 09-08-2004, 03:55 AM   #30
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Originally posted by AvsGirl41


Simply put--oil.

There is an oil pipeline that runs from Kazakstan through Chechnya to Russia.

If Russians give Chechens independence, they lose control of the pipeline. Naturally, the Chechens *want* control, as they don't exactly have anything else to build an economy on.

Chechnya also has about an 80% Russian population, who want to stay tied to Russia and vice versa.

80% of them want to stay tied to Russian then? Oh, htat just makes things so much sadder than....
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