Protesting a Marine's funeral...

[A_Wanderer]

Who's saying that you can't say a word against it? I say words against them.

They are profoundly wrong in their motivations and burning a childrens book is a downright kooky course of action ~ they should damn well be criticised for their backwards beliefs.

But the action itself of burning pages and bindings to make a political statement is a very strong one; burning literature is a retrograde act in destroying culture, but what of burning an unjust treaty in protest?

When you go down the road of punishing people for such things

There are limits too free speech ~ libel and slander, inciting violence etc. but defining the limits and ensuring that those freedoms are not eroded piece by piece does at time require seeing people do profoundly stupid things with that freedom.

 

[hiphop]

And so what? You are obviously missing the point.

We are not discussing about the reduction of free speech however stupid it may be. not discussing about punishing them.

We are discussing about an official statement of the Christian Right that condems such an action.

Like I said
If the Christian Right organisations don´t make any such statement, I have to assume that they fully support those actions.

 

[nbcrusader]

And so what? You are obviously missing the point.

We are not discussing about the reduction of free speech however stupid it may be. not discussing about punishing them.

We are discussing about an official statement of the Christian Right that condems such an action.

Like I said
If the Christian Right organisations don´t make any such statement, I have to assume that they fully support those actions.

Two issues:

First, it sounds like you are using the term "Christian Right" as a clear, homogeneous group with clear, definite spokespersons.

Second, why give Phelps any more attention? Why validate the freak show? Phelps tries his hardest to get into the press and the press occasionally bites on the stupid stunts. If Phelps had an impact on society, I am sure you would hear far more than you do today.

 

[Liesje]

First, it sounds like you are using the term "Christian Right" as a clear, homogeneous group with clear, definite spokespersons.

Yes, I was writing a response to hiphop's response to me, but then I got more confused b/c I was assuming he was talking about the Christian Right, like an actual organization/group called the Christian Right. Am I way off?

 

[hiphop]

Some conservative bishops would be ok for a start. If TV shows Phelps they can also show a churh person who takes distance from such actions. I always hear of those freak persons who say they are the ultimate best Christians and know whats the right thing. A moderate, conservative reply within the local church communities to be articulated to the media wouldn´t be a bad thing.

The argument why give Phelps more attention is an easy cop-out.

I also said "If there is a reasonable, serious Christian Right in the country,.." - if there isn´t, my arguments are way off, I admit.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Yes, I was writing a response to hiphop's response to me, but then I got more confused b/c I was assuming he was talking about the Christian Right, like an actual organization/group called the Christian Right. Am I way off?

I'm not sure an actual organization called "The Christian Right" exists.

 

[nbcrusader]

Some conservative bishops would be ok for a start. If TV shows Phelps they can also show a churh person who takes distance from such actions. I always hear of those freak persons who say they are the ultimate best Christians and know whats the right thing. A moderate, conservative reply within the local church communities to be articulated to the media wouldn´t be a bad thing.

The argument why give Phelps more attention is an easy cop-out.

The media controls who they put on for any given issue. You always sell more when you can simply put the freak on the cover instead of getting a point and counter point.

And, just to make it clear - there are plenty of right-wing Christians, spread among different groups with different beliefs. There is no "Christian Right".

 

[hiphop]

 

[Maeve]

I am a Catholic and I find this whole situation very disturbing. How can anyone "Protest" a funneral?

My deepest sympathies to his family. They have just lost their son. And he deserves to be buried with honor and dignity.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Where you trying to make a point? If so, for clarity's sake, please tell us. That little rolling head tells us nothing.

 

[yolland]

I don´t think you should be issuing statements of disagreement or distancing yourself, but that the conservative Christian organizations should.

You might just as (un)reasonably argue that the Democratic Party should also be issuing statements distancing itself from Phelps, since he's run for governor as a Democrat three times, and for the Senate once, too. Of course, no one voted for him except for the same dozen family members who pretty much entirely comprise his "Baptist" congregation, as well as his loyal protest troops. (Yes, he can legally call himself a "Baptist minister" even though, like about 20% of American churches, his is not in fact affiliated with any denomination, Baptist or otherwise. And the fact that you refer to "conservative bishops" suggests to me that you are not very familiar with the American religious landscape and just how decentralized it is.)

I also don't think you realize how much of a self-evident flake Phelps is. Besides picketing several soldiers' funerals (including ones held at conservative evangelical churches), his followers' accomplishments also include: showing up at Ground Zero immediately after 9/11 to shout abuse at rescue workers for interfering with "God's judgment against fags;" a "Thank God for the London Subway Bombings" campaign (with similar 'logic' behind it); a "Thank God for the Tsunami" campaign (not sure what the logic there was supposed to be, though it did include a prayer that North America might also be hit with a tsunami to cleanse it of its "Jew infestation"); and a string of protests against desegregation and interracial dating, including one against the ultraconservative evangelical Bible school, Bob Jones University.

Basically, Phelps' modus operandi--as most Americans who follow the news already know, since he's been doing this for 15 years--is to show up wherever calamity occurs and people are grieving, shouting "Praise God!" and attributing the crisis to "fags." His so-called "religious beliefs" and "political views" are nothing more than conduits for his paranoically obsessive hatred of gays, and this fact would be immediately apparent to just about any American who hears his rhetoric.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

showing up at Ground Zero immediately after 9/11 to shout abuse at rescue workers for interfering with "God's judgment against fags;" a "Thank God for the London Subway Bombings" campaign (with similar 'logic' behind it); a "Thank God for the Tsunami" campaign (not sure what the logic there was supposed to be, though it did include a prayer that North America might also be hit with a tsunami to cleanse it of its "Jew infestation"); and a string of protests against desegregation and interracial dating, including one against the ultraconservative evangelical Bible school, Bob Jones University.

Geez...

Could I start a campaign asking him to remove the stick from his arse? Pretty please?

Angela

 

[hiphop]

Of course, no one voted for him except for the same dozen family members who pretty much entirely comprise his "Baptist" congregation, as well as his loyal protest troops. (Yes, he can legally call himself a "Baptist minister" even though, like about 20% of American churches, his is not in fact affiliated with any denomination, Baptist or otherwise. And the fact that you refer to "conservative bishops" suggests to me that you are not very familiar with the American religious landscape and just how decentralized it is.)

What do serious organizations like the American Baptist Churches USA think about that? I don´t find anything on their website www.abc-usa.org

point being if I was on the board of directors of a Catholic organization, and someone like Phelps calls himself Catholic, I wouldn´t wait a minute to save the reputation of my organization.

 

[dazzlingamy]

I just think that this phelps guy really is gay and can't handle it....

*rolls eyes*

I love how those people think THEY are "perfection defined" when it comes to human beings, when they are the most disgusting of the lot.

 

[XHendrix24]

Makes me sick to my stomach, people like this guy.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I love how those people think THEY are "perfection defined" when it comes to human beings, when they are the most disgusting of the lot.

. Agreed.

Angela

 

[s_tielemans]

Ah, there you see there is no basic difference in hatred. If this guy Phelps had a little more guts, he'd be running around gunning gay people down, or muslims, or jews, or whoever does not fit in his 'perfect christian image'.

Too bad that if people start worshipping persons, the ideas get lost underway. I don't believe this is what Jesus taught (whether you believe in him or not).

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I don't believe this is what Jesus taught (whether you believe in him or not).

You're right, it isn't. I think Jesus would be quite sad to see people like Phelps acting the way they do.

Hatred never becomes anybody.

Angela

 

[nbcrusader]

point being if I was on the board of directors of a Catholic organization, and someone like Phelps calls himself Catholic, I wouldn´t wait a minute to save the reputation of my organization.

I think you are giving Phelps far too much credit as a supposed figurehead or spokesperson for any organization or group. There are plenty of vile individuals in society, I sincerely doubt you would want a statement of repudiation for each one by every possibly connected organization.

 

[hiphop]

I think you are giving Phelps far too much credit as a supposed figurehead or spokesperson for any organization or group. There are plenty of vile individuals in society, I sincerely doubt you would want a statement of repudiation for each one by every possibly connected organization.

Maybe, but if Phelps is a total nobody why are we discussing him on here then.

 

[nbcrusader]

Maybe, but if Phelps is a total nobody why are we discussing him on here then.

Well, let's just say you don't have conservative Christians posting or quoting Phelps. It seems that others love to use him to taint a larger group.

 

[hiphop]

Well, let's just say you don't have conservative Christians posting or quoting Phelps. It seems that others love to use him to taint a larger group.

ok one point to you for good arguments.