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Old 02-28-2006, 06:23 PM   #31
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Originally posted by nathan1977
^ Exactly.

I'm sorry, but perhaps we should define terms like "fascist" before we start labelling people who disagree with us as such. Or spend time in countries like North Korea.
North Korea is a Stalinist regime, not a fascist. Fascist regimes usually have strong ties to religious institutions (historically, the Catholic Church).

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Old 02-28-2006, 06:25 PM   #32
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
You missed the point of my interjection - that of perspective. On a global scale, it is a complete luxury that we get to sit in comfortable office and have discussions withe people around the world through a nicely run web site.
So if I pass a law negating your marriage and have the state take away your children, because society deems "people like you" as being dangerous to children, would you be consoled with your comfortable office and computer?

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Old 02-28-2006, 06:51 PM   #33
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Originally posted by melon


Have you ever studied any? Because fascist states, contrary to what some here might think, aren't suffering from famine and malnutrition.

In fact, the majority usually love fascist/nationalist regimes. It's the scapegoated minorities who usually don't like it.

Melon
Wikepedia has some interesting things to say about fascism. Link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

A brief excerpt:
Fascism (in Italian, fascismo), capitalized, was the authoritarian political movement which ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. Similar political movements, including Nazism, spread across Europe between World War I and World War II.

The most restrictive definitions of fascism include only one government, that of Mussolini in Italy. However, the term is frequently applied to Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler and is used to refer to similar regimes and movements across Europe in the same time period, such as Hungary's Arrow Cross, Romania's Iron Guard, Spain's Falange, and the French political movements led by Marcel Déat and Jacques Doriot. More broadly, it is sometimes (by both supporters and opponents) applied to other authoritarian regimes of the period such as those of Imperial Japan under Hideki Tojo, Austria under Engelbert Dollfuss and Greece under Ioannis Metaxas. Its use for similar but longer-lived regimes such as Spain under Francisco Franco and the Estado Novo of António de Oliveira Salazar in Portugal is widespread among opponents of those regimes but is often disputed by their supporters. This trend toward the term being used only by opponents is amplified in the case of more recent authoritarian regimes such as Indonesia under Suharto, and Chile under Augusto Pinochet.

When you use the term "Fascists" to define people who disagree with you, I just want us to make sure what we're talking about here.
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Old 02-28-2006, 06:52 PM   #34
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Grabs popcorn...
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Old 02-28-2006, 06:56 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Wikepedia has some interesting things to say about fascism. Link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

...

When you use the term "Fascists" to define people who disagree with you, I just want us to make sure what we're talking about here.
I use the term narrowly, but I do believe that what FOTF wants for America is no different at all from the fascist regimes of Franco in Spain, Salazar in Portugal, or even Duplessis in Québec. I'm not referring to the extreme situations of Hitler and Mussolini.

Franco, Salazar, and Duplessis all enjoyed wide support from the Catholic Church in their day, because they acted as de facto theocracies. Dobson would love for America to follow suit.

In practice, this is little different from Iran today, which is a theocracy that holds elections.

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Old 02-28-2006, 07:04 PM   #36
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If you are going to toss around words like "fascist" (instead of the forbidden “Nazi”) it is not unreasonable to be called on it.

It doesn't automatically mean your underlying argument is invalid in any way. But now we get sidetracked over the right to place extreme labels.

And calling someone on such use of labels is not a matter of being
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Old 02-28-2006, 08:35 PM   #37
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
And calling someone on such use of labels is not a matter of being


so what is telling someone that they should be happy because even though they are effectively 2nd class citizens and publicly accused of being child molestors via innuendo, hey, at least you're not in a nazi death camp?

the adoption thing irks me even more than the marriage thing. many gay people want to step in and adopt the various mistakes made my straight people, to effectively sweep up after they've had some fun (and didn't abort!), and then people turn around and speak of how "every child deserves a mother and a father" and "we don't want those people raising our children" and it's enough to make me scream bloody murder.
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Old 02-28-2006, 09:06 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
That was not the point being discussed. But, I guess issues can only be framed one way....
The last bit is unnecessary, I wasn't mocking you like that. I am still trying to understand why you thought "perspective" was uniquely missing from this thread to begin with. Perhaps you were referring strictly to the fascism comment, in which case I simply misunderstood you.
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Old 02-28-2006, 10:26 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

the adoption thing irks me even more than the marriage thing.
That drives me nuts too. It's as if since you're gay, you naturally shouldn't have any recreation impulses whatsoever so there can only be one reason you'd want to be around children.

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Old 03-01-2006, 12:45 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


That drives me nuts too. It's as if since you're gay, you naturally shouldn't have any recreation impulses whatsoever so there can only be one reason you'd want to be around children.

I'm sure you mean procreation not recreation impulses, right?
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Old 03-01-2006, 01:34 AM   #41
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Originally posted by Irvine511
so what is telling someone that they should be happy because even though they are effectively 2nd class citizens and publicly accused of being child molestors via innuendo, hey, at least you're not in a nazi death camp?
Where are you getting that? Not once have I suggested anything even close to that effect.

As you have said times before, words matter. Your ability to make an excellent point can be derailed by poor word choice or use of hyperbole.

This thread is a clear example. Melon was making apoint regarding Ohio politics, tossed in "fascist" and the core point was ignored because of word choice.
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:37 AM   #42
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We really should have a good old drag-em-down conversation about fascism one of these days, guys. Nazi Germany was one (not entirely but somewhat unique, woohoo, bad grammar there!) example of that phenomenon, but by no means the last word on the subject. If you're waiting for things to get as bad as Nazi Germany, you'll be waiting a long time. Thankfully (but don't forget, the Nazis loved their kids and dogs too).
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Old 03-01-2006, 07:51 AM   #43
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*sits next to finance guy , nicks some popcorn, puts feet up*
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:06 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
This thread is a clear example. Melon was making apoint regarding Ohio politics, tossed in "fascist" and the core point was ignored because of word choice.
Better yet, conservatives sit back and hype on the hyperbolic statements, while ignoring the good points to derail the conversation.

Quote:
So if I pass a law negating your marriage and have the state take away your children, because society deems "people like you" as being dangerous to children, would you be consoled with your comfortable office and computer?
Want to address this someday, or do you intend to continue your encyclical on your narrow definition of "fascist"?

Melon
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:51 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Where are you getting that? Not once have I suggested anything even close to that effect.



firstly, the post wasn't at you directly, but to several posters who have been saying, essentially, that we don't live in a fascist country and we should thusly count our blessings and get "persepctive" on things.

that misses the point of the thread entirely, as yolland has pointed out repeatedly. simply because i have enough to eat doesn't mean that the stereotype of the "evil gay" -- you know, analogous to the "evil Arab" that has likewise been around for decades -- isn't still wielded, quite effectively, by conservative politicians to mobilize their ignorant masses to deny me certain aspects of citizenship and personhood.

i see no hyperbole in anything written above.


[q]As you have said times before, words matter. Your ability to make an excellent point can be derailed by poor word choice or use of hyperbole.[/q]


this clearly isn't an example of any of those times.



Quote:
This thread is a clear example. Melon was making apoint regarding Ohio politics, tossed in "fascist" and the core point was ignored because of word choice.

and Melon aptly defended his use of the word "fascist" -- it's not to say that America is a fascist country or that Ohio is a fascist state; but it is to say that there are fascist impulses in Ohio politics, and he went on to elucidate the differences between what people think of as fascist countries (i.e., N. Korea) when they really aren't fascist but Stalinist or some other -ist.
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