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Old 08-02-2006, 02:29 PM   #16
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I think many are trying to get a discussion to occur in the classroom. We've seen repeated statements (in our FYM history on this subject) that the discussion should not even occur.
If the quality of the education is really what these politicians are after, then I support it. Like I said before, I went to schools that presented four very different theories of creation. We studied each with equal weight and had several class discussions.

Honestly I don't understand why the public schools are so against doing this. Presenting ID as a possibility is not the same as exclusively teaching ID or arguing it has greater weight than more scientific theories. Plenty of theories found in a wide range of subjects are based on or spawned off of considering things from a religious point of view (not exclusively Christian) and these ideas are studied. I've never understood why creation is a bigger deal than anything else.

If ID is just too religious to even mention, then fine, get rid of it altogether. What bugged me about the article in this thread is that it sounded like these politicians are arguing in favor of presenting ID not on its own merrits, but by trying to make evolution look like a theory not worth considering so all we're left with is ID. Not cool.
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Old 08-02-2006, 02:35 PM   #17
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With this line of thinking no one would ever learn anything. What if you did this with slavery, holocaust, or health?
It's silly to compare those issues to evolution. Slavery happened. The holocaust happened. We do not know that macroevolution of the human being happened (although that doesn't stop some people from teaching it as fact instead of theory).

My idea provides resolution to an argument that will otherwise never cease, simply by providing no resolution and letting the student come up with his own resolution. The reason the argument will never cease is because evolutionists won't even entertain the idea of teaching alternative theories, even though most creationists are only demanding equal time.
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Old 08-02-2006, 02:44 PM   #18
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It's silly to compare those issues to evolution. Slavery happened. The holocaust happened. We do not know that macroevolution of the human being happened (although that doesn't stop some people from teaching it as fact instead of theory).
Slavery did exist, but the repercussions and how evil it was is still in question by many. And the holocaust, you still have many who deny...

My idea provides resolution to an argument that will otherwise never cease, simply by providing no resolution and letting the student come up with his own resolution. The reason the argument will never cease is because evolutionists won't even entertain the idea of teaching alternative theories, even though most creationists are only demanding equal time. [/B][/QUOTE]

What I find funny about this statement is that there's enough evidence in this world to teach evolution as a theory, evidence that so many Biblical literalist just ignore. Yet how do you teach creation, what evidence do you have? The Bible, sorry pal not enough to teach in an academic setting.

You can't demand equal time with something that has SOME tangible evidence to something that is pure faith.
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Old 08-02-2006, 02:55 PM   #19
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What I find funny about this statement is that there's enough evidence in this world to teach evolution as a theory, evidence that so many Biblical literalist just ignore.
Especially the part in Genesis where there are two Hebrew words used for "creation": one always refers to God as the creator and the other always refers to life itself evolving because of it's own nature to do so ("evolution").
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Old 08-02-2006, 02:59 PM   #20
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Especially the part in Genesis where there are two Hebrew words used for "creation": one always refers to God as the creator and the other always refers to life itself evolving because of it's own nature to do so ("evolution").
We don't like to go the original source in here...
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Old 08-02-2006, 02:59 PM   #21
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If you want to have a "discussion" in the classroom, feel free to have it in philosophy class, or alternately, a religious studies class.

Biology is for quantifiable science, not religious nonsense. Period.
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Old 08-02-2006, 03:01 PM   #22
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


We don't like to go the original source in here...
Yeah, go figure!

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Old 08-02-2006, 03:36 PM   #23
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Biology is for quantifiable science, not religious nonsense. Period.


whatever.

you just want to silence the astrologists. why are you so threatened by alternative viewpoints?

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Old 08-02-2006, 03:37 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


We don't like to go the original source in here...
BVS,
Did you go to the original source yourself for the "2 meanings of creation" or are you just putting your trust in LivLuv being correct?

In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew word for creation is BARAH and means "to create something from nothing."

Where is this other meaning?
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Old 08-02-2006, 03:58 PM   #25
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I don't think either side will ever be happy. The pro-evolution folks will be angry at the thought of creation being taught and the pro-creation folks will be upset that evolution is being taught. And if you get rid of one but not the other than there's a problem...
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Old 08-02-2006, 04:09 PM   #26
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Originally posted by Bono'sTyee
I don't think either side will ever be happy. The pro-evolution folks will be angry at the thought of creation being taught and the pro-creation folks will be upset that evolution is being taught. And if you get rid of one but not the other than there's a problem...


but doesn't this set up a false equivocation between the two?

they are not equally worthy subjects in the eyes of science, and even the presentation of creationism/ID as a possible alternative to evolution gives creationism/ID a patena of academic credibility that it does not deserve.
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Old 08-02-2006, 04:49 PM   #27
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Honestly I don't understand why the public schools are so against doing this. Presenting ID as a possibility is not the same as exclusively teaching ID or arguing it has greater weight than more scientific theories. Plenty of theories found in a wide range of subjects are based on or spawned off of considering things from a religious point of view (not exclusively Christian) and these ideas are studied. I've never understood why creation is a bigger deal than anything else.
I agree with you here.

As you can tell from the instant discussion, questioning evolution is labeled as an endorsement of ID.
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Old 08-02-2006, 06:34 PM   #28
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I agree with you here.

As you can tell from the instant discussion, questioning evolution is labeled as an endorsement of ID.
...which is unfair, I agree. Also unfair = assuming that accepting evolution excludes genuine belief in ID.
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Old 08-02-2006, 07:06 PM   #29
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I'm a teacher, so maybe I can shed some light on why many of us are so resistant to having ID taught in science classes.

Until intelligent design is thoroughly investigated in a structured and scientific manner like evolution, it isn't science, and simply, therefore, should not be taught in a science class. The scientific evidence supporting evolution so far overwhelms any scientific evidence of ID that it's ridiculous to consider them deserving of equal time in a SCIENCE class. My job as a teacher is to give my students the best available information and evidence. Anyone who has studied evolution in depth realizes that the evidence for it is overwhelming. Until ID can present a legitimate challenge to evolution based on scientific evidence, it doesn't need to be in the classroom.

And for those who say we might as well not teach anything about it and just tell people to research it for themselves and make up their own minds...that's ridiculous. That's like telling a student, "There are a lot of translations of this Latin poem on the Internet, so go find one and teach yourself some Latin." There is no substitution for learning in the classroom under the guidance of a more expert mentor.

Parents are, of course, advised to monitor what their children are learning in school, and if they want to, they can supplement those teachings with their own religious context--a religious context that does not need to be, and should not be, presented as science in public, non-religious schools.
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Old 08-02-2006, 07:39 PM   #30
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I personally attended and graduated from a private religious university. Our school taught evolution in all of it's scienced based curriculum, as the basic idea of evolution does not really oppose anything in Christianity. The origin of man and evolution are unfortunately frequently mistaken and confused by most conservatives/religion-based groups.

While I think intelligent design should not be taught in schools, I also think that teachers should not teach evolution as a way to "disprove the Bible or Christianity" as somehow unfairly seems to be more acceptable in a class room setting. As intelligent design can not (presently at least) be proven scientifically, evolution can also not spiritually or scientifically (presently at least) disprove anything taught in the Bible or religion. Both of these ideas are separate in my opinion, and I have problems with one form of "teaching" to somehow be acceptable while the other is not.
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