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Old 02-11-2005, 06:06 AM   #31
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my interpretation of post-modernism is something like this: there is this realm where we have certain ideas like logic, reason, truth etc. But, those do not quiet describe this world. It is beyond this
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Old 02-11-2005, 08:19 AM   #32
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Originally posted by seankirkland
Whoa, whoa, Melon! You are quite bold and sure of yourself. You make very broad, stereotypical statements about the Church and organized religion and you hold quite a bit against everyone assoiciated with being a Christian. I'm not responsible for Crusades or gross atrocities that you cite. If "mainstream religion" did these crimes, I apoligize for it, if that's possible. I do agree with you that much of what is seen that "the Church" at large has done might be represented as bad things, but what about someone who is looking to follow the example of Jesus in an honest, humble way? What about Bono himself, who is a believer in Christ? I know that he has problems with organized religion, but He would say He's a Christian, I believe, if asked. I, myself, don't like alot of what the Church has done as a group, but I'd rather be "inside" as a part of it, trying to do my part for the team, so to speak, instead of outside, criticizing it and never seeing any improvement. I can say that I might and probably never will make a change such that the entire Church will be seen differently, but I will surely do my best as a single unit (with my wife and daughter) to follow Christ and live my life in love within the body of believers.

And I highly object to your opinion that religion is a crutch to justify prejudices! True, religion (meaning that it's just an empty set of rules) might be a crutch to some, but to make a broad stereotype that everyone who is in a relationship with God has a crutch is quite rude and narrow-minded, I might say. I could say that you're a selfish liberal idiot, but that would be quite rude and wrong. I think that you might have been hurt by someone or a group of people in your past who are affiliated with Church/religion and that's why you vent so strongly against anything to do with it. But, I can tell you from my day-to-day life that I have an intimate relationship with my God, who created me, and it's incredible. I have a knowledge of His love, His character, and His heart and it's anything but the lie that is spread by most of the media and most of the postmodern spew that you've been tossing out here. It's coming from those that don't know because they're only observing limited data that's skewed to the negative, so as to make Christianity look horrible and worthless. How, if it is SO bad as you say, could I have rich, intimate times spent just hanging out with Jesus, both by reading His Word and by praying and listening to His voice? How is that so? How could I be involved in a trip to India, where I was able to hang out with those outcast children in the Mother Theresa home, feeding those that can't feed themselves and playing games with deformed children who society has cast aside to die??

I saw Jesus in those precious, little ones. I know without a doubt that Jesus is real and He is affecting my life on so many levels. I can't speak for "the Church" at large and I wont' try to make up for all the mistakes they've made, but I can testify to my life. I only wish these individual instances and lives could be shown to the world, but I doubt it will happen. What the world knows, and what the prince of this world wants it to know and see, is what you've said earlier. It's becoming cemented in the public consciousness that Christians are lame, narrow-minded, and weak, "crutch-weilding" morons. Well, Melon, thanks for adding to that personification by your words. I pray that you'll be able to personally meet and know some true people of faith, who provide a solid, trustworthy example of being a Christian and are people who you can trust.

Sorry for this being so long, but I felt the need to share from the heart. One last thing: if anything, a relationship with God is lodged in the heart. I believe Bono said it best.... "into the heart of a child, I can go there, I can stay awhile...."
I fully respect what you have to say here, and combine that with my "apology" in financeguy's apology thread, that sums up where I come from.

But let me put it this way: if Christians oppose a core part of my being, then no matter what they do, no matter what other good they do, is completely irrelevant to me. It's like a black person trying to find good in the KKK. Sure, some of the members might do good things outside of their membership, but they're part of a group that actively opposes their very existence.

If Christianity, as a whole, is to ever regain my respect, they will abandon their rampant homophobia. It is not love; it is, in fact, quite blatantly hateful. And that whole "hate the sin, love the sinner" crap is a crutch; actions speak much louder than words. All the other good works in the world is meaningless to me.

And the silence from Christians against their leadership is quite telling.

Melon
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Old 02-11-2005, 10:20 AM   #33
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So, if we, as Christians have must honor God by loving people, and admonishing them when it goes clearly against what God's Word says (sometimes loving is correcting --- see discipling a child for an example), then we are in direct opposition when we have an ultimatum from you, someone who says that everything would be good with them, EXCEPT for this one thing. My choice comes down to honoring God or honoring you, Melon, by stopping what's supposedly "homophobia" (because we don't believe that it's just "who you are" at the "core of your being"). This is why we'll see the rise in anti-Christian thought and ultimately Christian martyrdom in the coming days.... we'll be forced to choose: God or the world's way. It's already predicted in the Bible.

Has it ever occurred to you that believing you are "gay to the core of your being" is a belief and one that can be falsely believed? Maybe it's a lie and your identity has been distorted by a liar who seeks to destroy your life and keep you from all God has.

It seems that if you hold onto homosexuality so strongly that it makes you question everything in the Bible, simply because one part doesn't agree with you, then homosexuality is your god of choice. It or the sovereignty of God? Who is your master?
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Old 02-11-2005, 10:29 AM   #34
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My choice comes down to honoring God or honoring you, Melon, by stopping what's supposedly "homophobia" (because we don't believe that it's just "who you are" at the "core of your being").
You can believe in the existence of leprechauns for all I care. It doesn't make it true. If Christians wish to lie to themselves on a regular and consistent basis to support their prejudices, then go for it.

Quote:
Has it ever occurred to you that believing you are "gay to the core of your being" is a belief and one that can be falsely believed? Maybe it's a lie and your identity has been distorted by a liar who seeks to destroy your life and keep you from all God has.
That's easy to say, as a Christian heterosexual. You peek in from the outside and can spout whatever you want, no matter how false it is. I can tell you right now: it is not a "choice." Ask any other gay person: it is not a "choice." I can tell you this in every and any fashion, and you won't believe me. So I will say this: I hope that, someday, you have a gay child. Then you will understand.

Quote:
It seems that if you hold onto homosexuality so strongly that it makes you question everything in the Bible, simply because one part doesn't agree with you, then homosexuality is your god of choice. It or the sovereignty of God? Who is your master?
Haha...good one. "Mythic speech" being written to "mythic proportions." Religion is the greatest perversion of God ever.

Melon
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Old 02-11-2005, 10:30 AM   #35
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[Q]Has it ever occurred to you that believing you are "gay to the core of your being" is a belief and one that can be falsely believed? Maybe it's a lie and your identity has been distorted by a liar who seeks to destroy your life and keep you from all God has. [/Q]

This is one of the most F'd up statements I have EVER read in here.

I cannot wait until the end is sorted out. There are going to be so many surprised people.


[Q]It seems that if you hold onto homosexuality so strongly that it makes you question everything in the Bible, simply because one part doesn't agree with you, then homosexuality is your god of choice. It or the sovereignty of God? Who is your master?[/Q]

I have seen more of God in my homosexual minister than I have in half of the places I have attended worship.

Do you have any concept of how utterly offensive what you just typed is, I am seriously curious? Or is it OKAY because you know you hold the TRUTH?

Just as the Pharisees held the truth...they were surprised at what God's plan was.

Melon, do not give the dignity of a response.
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Old 02-11-2005, 10:31 AM   #36
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Melon, do not give the dignity of a response.
Heh...too late.

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Old 02-11-2005, 10:32 AM   #37
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Heh...too late.

Melon
I wish you were still in the Boston area, my church is open to you brother.
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Old 02-11-2005, 10:40 AM   #38
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I wish you were still in the Boston area, my church is open to you brother.
Which one do you go to again?

I used to, once in a while, go to Christ Church in Cambridge. I quite enjoyed Episcopal services.

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Old 02-11-2005, 10:42 AM   #39
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Christ Church in Plymouth
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Old 02-11-2005, 09:36 PM   #40
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Sorry if it's "offensive." The cross is the most offensive thing, to everyone. It's offensive to me, but I need to die in order to live. So, even though I have to put to death the things in my life that I hold on so tightly to and would rather do if there weren't any consequences, it's not easy. I have to consistently "die" to the pull of lust, or I might just end up cheating on my wife. I am crucified with Christ. All those "dead, lifeless" things in me that take me farther into myself and my desires and my wants have to be killed off for me to truly live. As strange as it sounds, part of me dies each day I experience the joys of parenthood. I am giving up much of what I used to just do whenever I want to because I have a child to care for. My child requires me, by her very need of me and my attention, to die to my self-centeredness.

It comes down to this: both God and Satan want you dead. God wants you to "die" (surrender) and be born again to full life in Him and Satan just wants you to be miserable and then die.

Nothing good is about "rights." Life is in giving up your rights.
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Old 02-11-2005, 09:52 PM   #41
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Never, to bow to the whims of religious men in the name of a fiction is absurd.

Man has free will with rights and responsibilities, we can live moral lives without surrendering all those rights. Choosing not to commit infidelity is an act of responsibility rather than submission ~ it is part and parcel of your rights.

All that is good and decent in this world is gained through choice and rights ~ I would rather rot on a crucifix than submit. (now that is biting criticism of religion )
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Old 02-11-2005, 10:38 PM   #42
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Sorry if it's "offensive."
No you are not.....
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Old 02-11-2005, 10:46 PM   #43
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Originally posted by seankirkland


Nothing good is about "rights." Life is in giving up your rights.

and here i was believing, with all my heart, that all men are endowed by their creator to inalienable rights of life, liberty, and that truly revolutionary phrase "the pursuit of happiness."

though i am an agnostic, when i want to be intellectually honest, i do find the idea that we actually came from God, and as such the shepard covered in sheep shit is as worthy and loved and important and as deserving of human rights and dignity in the eyes of God as the pharoh on the throne, to almost move me to tears.

but then, i did cry in "titanic" ...
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Old 02-11-2005, 11:50 PM   #44
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I remember when i was in high school - and other points in my life, well mainly just junior high school - and believe me seankirkland i talked just like you. the only good christians are the ones who are vocal. "he just tells it like it is," "he's totally not ashamed of his gospel," and so on ad nauseum.
The truth is:
IT IS NOT COOL!
I suggest reading the new testament again and searching for the heart of Jesus's message. Read it for yourself and stop listening to preachers who use cliches...."The cross is offensive," "i have to die to live." And, I swear I will use one of these if you ever use "born again" lingo. It's again, not cool.
If this seems too harsh I apologize. I'm just tired of christians (who have this lovely peaceful doctrine of Jesus in their hands) spewing forth hatred. Please seankirkland, understand that I'm not attacking you. Please take this to heart. No one will ever accept the all-embracive, loving message of Jesus presented in a Bill O'Reilly presentation.
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Old 02-12-2005, 06:02 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by seankirkland
Sorry if it's "offensive." The cross is the most offensive thing, to everyone. It's offensive to me, but I need to die in order to live. So, even though I have to put to death the things in my life that I hold on so tightly to and would rather do if there weren't any consequences, it's not easy. I have to consistently "die" to the pull of lust, or I might just end up cheating on my wife. I am crucified with Christ. All those "dead, lifeless" things in me that take me farther into myself and my desires and my wants have to be killed off for me to truly live. As strange as it sounds, part of me dies each day I experience the joys of parenthood. I am giving up much of what I used to just do whenever I want to because I have a child to care for. My child requires me, by her very need of me and my attention, to die to my self-centeredness.

It comes down to this: both God and Satan want you dead. God wants you to "die" (surrender) and be born again to full life in Him and Satan just wants you to be miserable and then die.

Nothing good is about "rights." Life is in giving up your rights.
Between this and the other stuff you've written, I've been trying to think of a respectable response that won't end up getting me banned.

Then I'm reminded why I feel that liberals are put on a double-standard of decency, because the difference between a liberal and a conservative? We would find this offensive. And if I write an offensive reply, I'm going to end up having moderators breathing down my throat to tone it down. The sheer fact that you actually believe this crap is probably the only reason this hasn't been shut down. I don't know whether to hate you or pity you.

None of what you've said here or elsewhere genuinely surprises me. It's all cookie-cutter fundamentalist Christian mythic speech babble, and reading this, I'm reminded exactly why I developed an intense hatred of organized religion. Thankfully, I separated God out from His followers a long time ago. He deserves better.

Seeing how your previous "cordiality" was probably nothing more than a front to gain people's trust just so you could show your "true colors" here (typical cult-like behavior), let me say this: you do not speak for Christianity, nor do you speak of a majority of Christians. Just because you think you are right, just because you've been told you are right, doesn't mean it is true. The Pharisees thought they were right, and they based everything on a fundamentalist interpretation of the Old Testament. In their literal-minded fundamentalist zeal, they were blind to the fact that "kingdom" was not literal, but metaphorical for "heaven."

I hope I'm alive for the Second Coming. I just want to see you proven wrong.

Melon
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