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Old 02-09-2005, 08:52 PM   #16
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Amen brothers and sisters! Can I get an Amen?
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Old 02-09-2005, 08:57 PM   #17
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So Melon, what is your background with postmodernism? Any favorite philosophers?
I would be curious to know this too, and also where you studied--your views on the topic are clearly extremely partisan.
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Old 02-09-2005, 08:59 PM   #18
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I have an M.A. in Media Arts, which includes study of media philosophy. Postmodernism is only a piece of it.

My favorite postmodernist philosopher is Jean Baudrillard. He's quite an interesting read, if you understand his subtext. Literalists will, of course, hate him.

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Old 02-09-2005, 09:04 PM   #19
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Ah, I was hoping you'd say Baudrillard. I loved "The Evil Demon of Images and the Precission of Simulacra."

*looking up title in Thomas Dockerty's reader*

Simulacra is such an interesting topic. In the words of Strong Bad "I'ma gonna start another thread."
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Old 02-09-2005, 11:28 PM   #20
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In the meditations Descartes seems to realize that the "I think, therefore I am" is not quiet strong enough. Afterall, I could say "I run, therefore I am." He suggests that it is the exact claim "I think" that neccessitates existance.
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Old 02-10-2005, 06:55 AM   #21
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as for there being no absolute truth.....

Isn't is absolutely true that everyone is unique from anyone else that has ever existed? There are no two totally alike.
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Old 02-10-2005, 07:02 AM   #22
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That's a fact, not a "Truth." The common misconception is that postmodernism rejects all "truths," so people will say "the sky is blue" and reject postmodernism.

"Truths" are things like "moral codes." Postmodernism would argue that morality is a human construct, and, as such, is always subject to error or prejudice. Thus, the only thing we have is a series of opinions on what morality should be, not "absolute Truth."

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Old 02-10-2005, 07:23 AM   #23
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So, opinions aren't a human construct? They are fallible and subject to error.

"in my opinion, this person isn't good. I'd rather they not be able to exist anymore."

How do we know what right or wrong is, in the first place, then? It's just there, in our DNA?

We're created out of relationship, for relationship. God, in the community of love that is known as the trinity, created us for relationship with Him. He gave us a spirit that knows right from wrong. Morality (what is good) comes from God, who is pure goodness. It's God's inherant nature. God is absolute truth.
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Old 02-10-2005, 07:26 AM   #24
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Basically, at the heart of it, postmodernism is wanting to make their own rules so one can do what they want, when they want it, and no one can say it's wrong. It's basically getting one off the hook, so to speak, so there's no accountability. Hey, if it's my opinion that I should have that bag of apples in the store because I'm hungry and am broke, I should have them. That's good for me and I need it, right??
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Old 02-10-2005, 07:50 AM   #25
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I'm not sure that's what postmodernism is all about. Let's continue this discussion over here:

http://forum.interference.com/t113629.html
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by seankirkland
So, opinions aren't a human construct? They are fallible and subject to error.
Of course they're a human construct. What made you think I thought otherwise? "Absolute Truth" is nothing but opinions.

Quote:
How do we know what right or wrong is, in the first place, then? It's just there, in our DNA?
What is "right" or "wrong" is part of the evolution of civilization, but religion didn't necessarily invent it. The cornerstone of Mosaic Law ("An eye for an eye") is a regurgitation of Hammurabi's Code. The Bible did not invent that phrase, but, funny, it is attributed to "God" in the Bible.

Considering that "separation of church and state" is a product of the Enlightenment, it shouldn't surprise you that the Bible is as much a "law book" as it is a "morality book." Of course, the clerics weren't stupid; they could write laws and then attribute them to "God," so they could kill anyone who questioned those laws.

Religion only contributed the first steps towards modern law enforcement. Nowadays, religion ranks nearly dead last when it comes to "doing the right thing." We have non-discrimination laws that are necessary for a pluralistic society, so why are religions exempt? Is it because they're bastions of discrimination? I think so.

Organized religion has lost all credibility in my eyes. When it came to overthrowing monarchies and establishing democracy, mainstream Christianity sided with the monarchs. When it came to ending slavery, mainstream Christianity used the Bible to support keeping slavery. When it came to women's suffrage, mainstream Christianity used the Bible to keep women from voting. When it came to desegregation and integration, mainstream Christianity used the Bible to support keeping the races separate. When it comes to gay rights, mainstream Christianity uses the Bible to support rampant discrimination.

Do I expect religion to do the right thing? Hell no! It has a track record of being consistently resistant to change in every and all forms. Thankfully, we have "crazy liberal Christians" to pave the way each step of the way, and, eventually, their ideas become the mainstream.

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We're created out of relationship, for relationship. God, in the community of love that is known as the trinity, created us for relationship with Him. He gave us a spirit that knows right from wrong. Morality (what is good) comes from God, who is pure goodness. It's God's inherant nature. God is absolute truth.
If I believed that Christianity was capable of "love," then maybe I'd believe you. Instead, it is nothing but a crutch to justify people's prejudices and resistance to change.

God may be "pure love," in theory, but His followers are anything but. So what does that make God?

Regardless, all of what we attribute to God, right or wrong, cannot be proven. Christianity, in itself, cannot decide on what the nature of God is. Anyone who claims "absolute Truth" is a liar, because even the nature of Christian fundamentalism has changed over the past 150 years. They would probably see modern fundamentalists as "heathens."

Melon
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:50 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by seankirkland
Basically, at the heart of it, postmodernism is wanting to make their own rules so one can do what they want, when they want it, and no one can say it's wrong. It's basically getting one off the hook, so to speak, so there's no accountability. Hey, if it's my opinion that I should have that bag of apples in the store because I'm hungry and am broke, I should have them. That's good for me and I need it, right??
That's a gross misunderstanding of what postmodernism is. It isn't a "morality" at all. It's a mechanism to understand the world around you. There isn't a group of "postmodernists" who have weekly meetings to decide how to overthrow religion.

I really have no idea where you got these ideas about postmodernism, but I know that Christianity has a poor grasp of reality anyway.

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Old 02-10-2005, 08:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I have an M.A. in Media Arts, which includes study of media philosophy. Postmodernism is only a piece of it.

My favorite postmodernist philosopher is Jean Baudrillard. He's quite an interesting read, if you understand his subtext. Literalists will, of course, hate him.

Melon
Melon coached me through one of his books two summers ago...LOL
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:50 PM   #29
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Originally posted by melon


That's a gross misunderstanding of what postmodernism is. It isn't a "morality" at all. It's a mechanism to understand the world around you. There isn't a group of "postmodernists" who have weekly meetings to decide how to overthrow religion.


you're not on the listserve? i'll forward you the location of our next meeting.

hint: it will be in a coastal city in a blue state.
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:50 PM   #30
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Whoa, whoa, Melon! You are quite bold and sure of yourself. You make very broad, stereotypical statements about the Church and organized religion and you hold quite a bit against everyone assoiciated with being a Christian. I'm not responsible for Crusades or gross atrocities that you cite. If "mainstream religion" did these crimes, I apoligize for it, if that's possible. I do agree with you that much of what is seen that "the Church" at large has done might be represented as bad things, but what about someone who is looking to follow the example of Jesus in an honest, humble way? What about Bono himself, who is a believer in Christ? I know that he has problems with organized religion, but He would say He's a Christian, I believe, if asked. I, myself, don't like alot of what the Church has done as a group, but I'd rather be "inside" as a part of it, trying to do my part for the team, so to speak, instead of outside, criticizing it and never seeing any improvement. I can say that I might and probably never will make a change such that the entire Church will be seen differently, but I will surely do my best as a single unit (with my wife and daughter) to follow Christ and live my life in love within the body of believers.

And I highly object to your opinion that religion is a crutch to justify prejudices! True, religion (meaning that it's just an empty set of rules) might be a crutch to some, but to make a broad stereotype that everyone who is in a relationship with God has a crutch is quite rude and narrow-minded, I might say. I could say that you're a selfish liberal idiot, but that would be quite rude and wrong. I think that you might have been hurt by someone or a group of people in your past who are affiliated with Church/religion and that's why you vent so strongly against anything to do with it. But, I can tell you from my day-to-day life that I have an intimate relationship with my God, who created me, and it's incredible. I have a knowledge of His love, His character, and His heart and it's anything but the lie that is spread by most of the media and most of the postmodern spew that you've been tossing out here. It's coming from those that don't know because they're only observing limited data that's skewed to the negative, so as to make Christianity look horrible and worthless. How, if it is SO bad as you say, could I have rich, intimate times spent just hanging out with Jesus, both by reading His Word and by praying and listening to His voice? How is that so? How could I be involved in a trip to India, where I was able to hang out with those outcast children in the Mother Theresa home, feeding those that can't feed themselves and playing games with deformed children who society has cast aside to die??

I saw Jesus in those precious, little ones. I know without a doubt that Jesus is real and He is affecting my life on so many levels. I can't speak for "the Church" at large and I wont' try to make up for all the mistakes they've made, but I can testify to my life. I only wish these individual instances and lives could be shown to the world, but I doubt it will happen. What the world knows, and what the prince of this world wants it to know and see, is what you've said earlier. It's becoming cemented in the public consciousness that Christians are lame, narrow-minded, and weak, "crutch-weilding" morons. Well, Melon, thanks for adding to that personification by your words. I pray that you'll be able to personally meet and know some true people of faith, who provide a solid, trustworthy example of being a Christian and are people who you can trust.

Sorry for this being so long, but I felt the need to share from the heart. One last thing: if anything, a relationship with God is lodged in the heart. I believe Bono said it best.... "into the heart of a child, I can go there, I can stay awhile...."
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