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Old 04-20-2004, 04:17 PM   #1
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Normal Promoting the Patriot Act?

Bush again promotes USA Patriot Act
For a second day, promotion of act, plus fund raising
Tuesday, April 20, 2004 Posted: 2:53 PM EDT (1853 GMT)


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Making the USA Patriot Act a theme in his bid to win a second term, President Bush is decrying any proposed weakening of the law he calls central to fighting terrorism.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

Quote:
Major elements of the post-September 11, 2001, law are to expire at the end of next year, and several conservative Republicans have joined liberal Democrats in saying that at least two of them are too intrusive on Americans' lives.
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Old 04-20-2004, 05:28 PM   #2
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I think this is horrible. Every admin. official was praising the Patriot Act to the 911 commission to make it seem so great.

There are provisions in the Act that are good and need to be made law, but as is it infringes on citizens civil rights and should be allowed to expire (especially those that concern US citizens). A different bill with more limited policy should be inacted.
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Old 04-20-2004, 05:38 PM   #3
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They are provisions that:

Allow sneak-and-peek searches to permit law enforcement agencies to surreptitiously enter a premises for evidence and inform terrorism suspects later.

Give law enforcement agencies the ability to obtain library records on demand for terrorism investigations.
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Old 04-20-2004, 05:40 PM   #4
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Have you seen the Condi Rice testimony before 9/11 commission?

She reiterated the adminstration's position that the Pat/Act allows shared intel for both FB1 and C1A to work together.

What bothers me about this argument is that it makes no sense. If you want to consolidate intelligence, then consolidate intelligence through reorganizing the infrastruture. Why insist the Pat./Act is for cooperative intelligence gathering, when it's basically invading civilian privacy? Furthermore, Pat./Act probably can cross its borders over the Internet, whereby anyone's American-based email account could be intercepted, even though they might live in Australia.

Arguing Pat/Act for cooperative intelligence, and downplaying the civilian privacy... is like arguing apples for oranges.

==============================================

In my mind, the essence of America is built on the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. There is no other sacred issues than that. Our forefathers laid out the ground rules our country were to follow and fashion themselves after.

Now enter the pat/act: A piece of paper that authorizes the g0vt to bypass practically everything American. It gives blank authority to accuse anyone in the country as an enemie of the state, as they please, with or without substantial evidence. It also denies those citizens, who might be truly innocent, their Constitutional Rights.

What rights are those?

It threatens the freedom of expression to the point where it's not kosher to criticize our g0vt and puts fear in those who might voice their opinions. Hence, 1st Amdnt. shot down.

4th Amdnt. is shot down when authorities can invade your privacy without cause.

5th Amdnt. is shot down when authorities deny your rights and forces you to confess what they want you to say.

6th Amndt. shot down when it cannot guarantee impartialty.

7th Amdnt. shot down. When they blankly accuse you, and you're denied trail by jury... instead, due to their insistence, you're put on militaary tribuunal.

9th Amdnt... the biggest kicker, in which it says: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

=======================

That's about half of the Bill of Rights violated. Is that Patriotic?! wtf?

Soon... the only standing Amdnt. left will be the 2nd. Cuz everyone gots to have their guns to keep off the terries and commies off our land.

======================

America's supposed to be the good guys. They can't change the rules and cheat around the law that made them.

I've always been cynical about the slogan: "United we stand." Because I think we forgot to add, right afterwards: "Paranoia all the way."
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Old 04-20-2004, 05:54 PM   #5
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In my mind, the essence of America is built on the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. There is no other sacred issues than that. Our forefathers laid out the ground rules our country were to follow and fashion themselves after.
But according to the administration you have to ignore the foundation of this country in order to "spread democracy" and "provide security".
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Old 04-20-2004, 06:07 PM   #6
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are terrorists looking to kill innocent americans really "citizens?" there are already rules on the books that would allow a police officer to enter a person's house if the feel there is an immediate danger, and then anything in plain view is admissible in court. if they can't prove in court that there was an immediate danger in their entry into the house, then that evidence will be thrown out of court. if the FBI or CIA attempts to use the patriot act as a false pretense for illegal serach and seizures that are unrelated to terrorism and homeland security, then said evidence will be thrown out of court. this is why i really don't get what all the big outcry about the patriot act is all about. maybe it's because you're all afraid that the government will be watching over what we do... well shit... who the hell doesn't think they do that as it is already? if they weren't already doing that, then what in the blue hell does the intelligence community do? play online games of scrabble?
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Old 04-20-2004, 06:19 PM   #7
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"maybe it's because you're all afraid that the government will be watching over what we do... well shit... who the hell doesn't think they do that as it is already? if they weren't already doing that, then what in the blue hell does the intelligence community do?"

I agree totally, but it's what is legitimately allowed. Mainly for me it's the possibility of the 5th, 6th , & 7th amendment violations that are the most bothersome. I really believe that is what ultimately made us different from so much of the world for so long.
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Old 04-20-2004, 06:24 PM   #8
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In terms of electromagnetic / telecommunication espionage, it pretty much already happens at a global scale. In the late 1990s, a program called "Echelon" was pretty much only in the realm of conspiracy theory--until the last couple of years, where I tend to see it mentioned very matter-of-fact in credible news sources, this time as an existing "anti-terrorism" tool. If "Echelon" truly does exist, then the U.S. is already intercepting and filtering every bit of communication that we utilize, whether it be the television, radio, or satellite broadcasts, but also "private" communications, such as internet, cellular telephony, land-line telephony, etc.

I do believe that "Echelon" has been mentioned as the tool that is currently used to monitor the "chatter" of terrorists, and, thus, if the "chatter" level is high, the security threat level is raised. Of course, that doesn't mean that they are just monitoring terrorist communications; all communications globally are likely being channelled through and scanned for "key" words or phrases. The Patriot Act, in many ways, to me, is merely a front to legitimize what the federal government and military have been doing for years without our knowledge.

What I do question, though, is whether any of this is about spreading "democracy" abroad or merely a means to preserve our own nation at any cost. In the past, that meant installing some very "dependable" but tyrannical dictatorships abroad. But what does that mean now? What will ultimately come of Iraq? Because the "democratic" solution may mean the Iraqi Shi'ites electing a leader that will take away democracy in the name of "Islam."

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Old 04-20-2004, 06:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
are terrorists looking to kill innocent americans really "citizens?" there are already rules on the books that would allow a police officer to enter a person's house if the feel there is an immediate danger, and then anything in plain view is admissible in court. if they can't prove in court that there was an immediate danger in their entry into the house, then that evidence will be thrown out of court. if the FBI or CIA attempts to use the patriot act as a false pretense for illegal serach and seizures that are unrelated to terrorism and homeland security, then said evidence will be thrown out of court. this is why i really don't get what all the big outcry about the patriot act is all about. maybe it's because you're all afraid that the government will be watching over what we do... well shit... who the hell doesn't think they do that as it is already? if they weren't already doing that, then what in the blue hell does the intelligence community do? play online games of scrabble?
You are assuming they will only be using this on terrorists, this has already been placed into question by many on both sides. You are also assuming that if the Patriot Act is abused it will go to court, well we've already seen the speedy trial those that sat at Gitmo for 2 years got. These provisions are written in such a way that they can be abused very easily, and this is why people are up in arms. They define terrorists in such broad strokes that honestly anyone who the government has it out for can be pursued by these means.

Like SoulMofo said before there are certain rights and protections that layed the foundation of this country. You can't ignore these, no matter what the times are. You can't ignore the foundation of the house while you update the roof, the plumbing, security system and kitchen because it's only a matter of time before the foundation will shift or the structural integrity will be altered and then your house is useless. So a new roof will shelter you from nothing, plumbing will just crack, security won't save you from shit and your kitchen will just be a pile of brandnew pretty but useless stainless steel appliances.
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Old 04-20-2004, 07:06 PM   #10
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acty, the Supreme Court heard a case today about the Gitmo prisoners. should be interesting how that turns out -- could cause parts of the Patriot Act to be unconstitutional.
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Old 04-21-2004, 05:43 AM   #11
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melon: US politicians allready confirmed the german press that the Echolon station in Bad Aibling (germany) is used for espionage in germany (incl. german companies)
So - it seems it does exist.
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Old 04-21-2004, 09:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You are assuming they will only be using this on terrorists, this has already been placed into question by many on both sides. You are also assuming that if the Patriot Act is abused it will go to court, well we've already seen the speedy trial those that sat at Gitmo for 2 years got. These provisions are written in such a way that they can be abused very easily, and this is why people are up in arms. They define terrorists in such broad strokes that honestly anyone who the government has it out for can be pursued by these means.

Like SoulMofo said before there are certain rights and protections that layed the foundation of this country. You can't ignore these, no matter what the times are. You can't ignore the foundation of the house while you update the roof, the plumbing, security system and kitchen because it's only a matter of time before the foundation will shift or the structural integrity will be altered and then your house is useless. So a new roof will shelter you from nothing, plumbing will just crack, security won't save you from shit and your kitchen will just be a pile of brandnew pretty but useless stainless steel appliances.
those sitting at guantanamo for the most part are not american citizens, but rather "enemy combatants," as is the phrase of choice these days. any violation would be a violation of geneva, not of any patriot act or anything like that.

look i agree the patriot act needs tweeking... it's far from a perfect system. but at least it's something. it's a step in the right direction... an over-step, but a step none the less. i for one have not seen any of my civil rights violated durring the "patriot act" era.
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Old 04-21-2004, 09:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
i for one have not seen any of my civil rights violated durring the "patriot act" era.
Nor I....

Hehe I guess we are not evildoers.
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Old 04-21-2004, 01:18 PM   #14
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


i for one have not seen any of my civil rights violated durring the "patriot act" era.
Do you honestly think as a straight, white, male, conservative American that you would? If it reaches you this country is f##ked.
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Old 04-21-2004, 04:49 PM   #15
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Well Janet Reno thinks it is a good thing.

[Q]Reno: Patriot Act overwhelmingly positive



WASHINGTON, April 13 (UPI) -- Former U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno Tuesday told the Sept. 11 Commission the Patriot Act aids law enforcement without compromising civil liberties.

"Generally, everything that has been done in Patriot Act has been helpful, while maintaining the balance with respect to civil liberties," Reno, who was attorney general under President Bill Clinton, said.

Reno said the only section of the Patriot Act she would like to see considered further is the Patriot Act's expansion of the search authorities granted by secret courts connected with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. She said she would like to learn more about those expansions, which might pose a threat to civil liberties.

Reno said further improvements to U.S. law enforcement and domestic intelligence gathering will likely not come from further statutory changes, but from changes in the behavior of individual agents.

"Where we've got to go is making sure we use our experience to make the system work," Reno said.

A positive change will come from "people sitting down and starting to share information," she added.[/Q]
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