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Old 05-21-2004, 09:21 PM   #106
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I am really puzzled by your response so I will not assume anything by it. I just do not understand your points.

If you are saying I value someone elses life over another, I am not sure it is a fair characterization. Or maybe it is not a fair characterization the way you would make my position seem.

I am stating it is my contention that in the world today when dealing with terrorists it is acceptable to use torture to gain information that may save lives.

If Moussaui had been pressed, I wonder if we would have known more about 9/11 and saved lives. So in this light, yes, I do accept it as valid.
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Old 05-21-2004, 10:24 PM   #107
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I'm not accusing you of any position.
I was just stating that in light of terrorism nothing has changed. There has always been terrorist act , though not on the scale we have seen or the amount of news carried out.

My main point was that I don't believe in torture for any purpose.
Honestly I'm so saddened by the news out of Iraq that I hardly want to participate in the discussions.

Now I've read several reports by forensic scientists that Bergs beheading was staged after his real death.

IMO - I'm truly just sickened by human evil
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Old 05-21-2004, 10:30 PM   #108
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http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/05/26105.php

A new side of testimony

call to conscience
by Roger Morris • Friday May 21, 2004 at 10:38 AM


The diplomat who quit over Nixon's invasion of Cambodia asks Americans on the front lines of foreign service to resign from the "worst regime by far in the history of the republic."

May 20, 2004 | Dear Trustees:

I am respectfully addressing you by your proper if little-used title. The women and men of our diplomatic corps and intelligence community are genuine trustees. With intellect and sensibility, character and courage, you represent America to the world. Equally important, you show the world to America. You hold in trust our role and reputation among nations, and ultimately our fate. Yours is the gravest, noblest responsibility. Never has the conscience you personify been more important.


A friend asked Secretary of State Dean Acheson how he felt when as a young official in the Treasury Department in the 1930s, he resigned rather than continue to work for a controversial fiscal policy he thought disastrous -- an act that seemed at the time to end the public service he cherished. "Oh, I had no choice," he answered. "It was a matter of national interest as well as personal honor. I might have gotten away with shirking one, but never both." As the tragedy of American foreign policy unfolded so graphically over the past months, I thought often of Acheson's words and of your challenge as public servants. No generation of foreign affairs professionals, including my own in the torment of the Vietnam War, has faced such anguishing realities or such a momentous choice.

I need not dwell on the obvious about foreign policy under President Bush -- and on what you on the inside, whatever your politics, know to be even worse than imagined by outsiders. The senior among you have seen the disgrace firsthand. In the corridor murmur by which a bureaucracy tells its secrets to itself, all of you have heard the stories.

You know how recklessly a cabal of political appointees and ideological zealots, led by the exceptionally powerful and furtively doctrinaire Vice President Cheney, corrupted intelligence and usurped policy on Iraq and other issues. You know the bitter departmental disputes in which a deeply politicized, parochial Pentagon overpowered or simply ignored any opposition in the State Department or the CIA, rushing us to unilateral aggressive war in Iraq and chaotic, fateful occupations in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

You know well what a willfully uninformed and heedless president you serve in Bush, how chilling are the tales of his ignorance and sectarian fervor, lethal opposites of the erudition and open-mindedness you embody in the arts of diplomacy and intelligence. Some of you know how woefully his national security advisor fails her vital duty to manage some order among Washington's thrashing interests, and so to protect her president, and the country, from calamity. You know specifics. Many of you are aware, for instance, that the torture at Abu Ghraib was an issue up and down not only the Pentagon but also State, the CIA and the National Security Council staff for nearly a year before the scandalous photos finally leaked.
...
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Old 05-21-2004, 10:36 PM   #109
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I'm more and more appalled each day. From the Washington Post:

Quote:
WASHINGTON - Some prisoners at Iraq (news - web sites)'s Abu Ghraib prison were ridden like animals, fondled by female soldiers, forced to curse their religion and required to retrieve their food from toilets, according to a published report Friday.

....

The Post also said detainees told investigators they were forced to denounce Islam or force-fed pork or liquor, required to masturbate in front of female soldiers, threatened with rape, and made to walk on all their hands and knees and bark like dogs.
Is there any excuse for this?

Would it be alright to make devout Christians denounce Jesus or devout Jews denounce Yahweh? It's truly appalling.
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Old 05-22-2004, 02:35 PM   #110
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Of course there's no excuse for that, and it is appalling beyond what words can say..

As for Bush using the "Christian good vs evil angle" - in no way does he represent the views of all Christians. He can use that angle from now until doomsday and it just won't wash. I give the majority of Christians enough credit to reject this on an intellectual and religious level.

On the other hand..as self-righteous as he is, I just can't believe Bush would ever stretch the Christian angle so far as to in any way rationalize this torture. He can't be that misguided.
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Old 05-22-2004, 11:54 PM   #111
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Does this meat the definition of SYSTEMIC?

[Q]Lawyer says he was told top U.S. general in Iraq knew of prison abuse

WASHINGTON(AP) — The commander of the military police company assigned to the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad has said he will testify that the top U.S. general in Iraq was present during some interrogations at the prison and witnessed some of the abuse, according to a published report. [/Q]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...on-abuse_x.htm
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Old 05-23-2004, 03:10 AM   #112
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Coalition forces 'seek immunity'

The coalition in Iraq wants its troops to remain immune from prosecution by Iraqis after the handover of power, it is reported.
Creating a sovereign Iraq should mean forces become subject to Iraqi laws.

But BBC Correspondent Jonathan Beale says UK and US forces want to remain under their own jurisdictions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3739561.stm



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






How to protect the coalition war criminals after june 30,...
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Old 05-23-2004, 08:08 AM   #113
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Not only subject to Iraqi Laws, but under Military Law, being tried in the Military Court and again in a Civilian Court, does not violate the double jeopardy law. You can be tried and sentenced twice.
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Old 05-25-2004, 05:40 AM   #114
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I don't think torture is acceptable, no matter how noble your ideas are that lead you to torture.
Why?

We should be careful not to give up our constitutional state, our human values and rights in the war against terrorism.
If we do that we've lost the war because we lost everything which was worth fighting for.

From my point of view it's the biggest success from Ossama Bin Laden that the world starts to evaluate his actions on the same scale as the actions of the US government.

We should look back in history to see what's hapening when we categorize people in some who "deserve" a bad treatment and some who deserve human rights.
On a long-term view the only chance for more peace is to live up on our ideals and not on revenge and violence.
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Old 05-25-2004, 10:57 AM   #115
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I agree with you Klaus. Torture isn't acceptable, and I feel like those jerks who did that stuff in that prison betrayed me and my country. Conceptually, putting the responsibility for it on a designated person could cut out the shenanigans currently going on the U.S. government over the scandal in Iraq. It's only right to address the question of responsibility in view of these shenanigans. There wouldn't be all of these question marks over who did what, and who knew what. This is damaging to the government and to the country and the whole world. But the ideal is not to have it in the first place.
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Old 05-26-2004, 08:49 AM   #116
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Abuse of Captives More Widespread, Says Army Survey
By DOUGLAS JEHL, STEVEN LEE MYERS and ERIC SCHMITT

Published: May 26, 2004 NYTimes / Washington
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/po...26ABUS.html?th
Quote:
WASHINGTON, May 25 — An Army summary of deaths and mistreatment involving prisoners in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan shows a widespread pattern of abuse involving more military units than previously known.

The cases from Iraq date back to April 15, 2003, a few days after Saddam Hussein's statue was toppled in a Baghdad square, and they extend up to last month, when a prisoner detained by Navy commandos died in a suspected case of homicide blamed on "blunt force trauma to the torso and positional asphyxia."
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Old 05-31-2004, 09:32 AM   #117
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I find this a further proof of the highest people in the Admin. approving or at least giving the nod to the types of abuses we have seen in the photos.

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=15429

Demand that Bush Drop Judicial Nomination of Lawyer Who Contributed to Abu Ghraib Policies

Given President Bush’s criticism of the torture of Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison and his declared intention that the prison be razed, it is impossible for him to credibly continue to back his nominee for a seat on the powerful 4th Circuit Court of Appeals – William Haynes.

As General Counsel to the Department of Defense, Haynes:


Was responsible for ensuring U.S. military compliance with the laws of war, the Geneva Convention, and federal law.

Dismissed and scolded human rights groups raising allegations of prisoner abuse in February 2003.

Helped make it harder for the officers with the military’s own Judge Advocate General Corps to observe interrogations. Haynes’ actions were so alarming that some JAG officers warned of “a disaster waiting to happen” and sought outside intervention.

Misled a U.S. Senator who had specifically asked about policies for detention and treatment of prisoners. (William J. Haynes, General Counsel, Department of Defense, Letter to U.S. Senator Patrick Leahy, June 25, 2003.)

Signed off on the legality of withholding Geneva Conventions protections from hundreds of persons detained at Guantanamo, defined as prisoners of war.

Helped develop the Defense Department's military tribunal plan, which has been condemned by human rights organizations and our nation's closest allies.

Supports the indefinite detention of U.S. citizens by the Executive Branch without legal counsel or meaningful judicial review.

Has been nominated to one of the most influential appellate courts in the country, but he has almost no in-court trial experience, and no direct appellate experience at all.
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Old 05-31-2004, 11:14 AM   #118
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Damn, this guy looks like bad news.
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Old 06-03-2004, 06:24 PM   #119
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And apparently, even after the Abu Ghraib scandal broke, soldiers abused Iraqi prisoners. From the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/155/...ad_guil:.shtml

Quote:
Two Marine privates plead guilty to shocking Iraqi detainee at second prison

By Martha Raffaele, Associated Press, 6/3/2004 13:10

HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) Two 19-year-old Marines pleaded guilty to giving electric shocks to an Iraqi prisoner they were guarding in early April, months after the Abu Ghraib prison abuse, military officials said.

...

According to the military statement, the pair and two other Marines wanted to discipline the detainee for throwing trash outside his cell and speaking loudly at the Al Mahmudiya prison, a temporary holding facility south of Baghdad.

The Marines attached wires to a power convertor, which delivered 110 volts of electricity to the detainee as he returned from the bathroom, the statement said.
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Old 06-08-2004, 03:34 AM   #120
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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/08/po...08ABUS.html?th
Quote:
Lawyers Decided Bans on Torture Didn't Bind Bush
By NEIL A. LEWIS and ERIC SCHMITT

Published: June 8, 2004

WASHINGTON, June 7 — A team of administration lawyers concluded in a March 2003 legal memorandum that President Bush was not bound by either an international treaty prohibiting torture or by a federal antitorture law because he had the authority as commander in chief to approve any technique needed to protect the nation's security.

The memo, prepared for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, also said that any executive branch officials, including those in the military, could be immune from domestic and international prohibitions against torture for a variety of reasons.
So the President is bound by either an international treaty prohibiting torture or by a federal antitorture law because he had to protect the nation's security?

This sounds like China, Iran or North Korea but not like a statement from a free country.
What hapens to America if torture becomes legal to protect national security?
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