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Old 05-11-2004, 09:44 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
And yet we still have people saying Guantanamo is Club Med.

To me, it is very possible that the only difference between Guantanamo and Iraq is that no pictures have yet surfaced from the former. I would not be surprised at all if there are abuses going on.
Me either.
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Old 05-12-2004, 10:12 AM   #62
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More from the Red Cross report.

According to a February 2004 International Red Cross report, "Certain CF military intelligence officers told the ICRC that in their estimate between 70 percent and 90 percent of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake."
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Old 05-12-2004, 12:40 PM   #63
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
He is such a sick SOB..

This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation, and we're going to ruin people's lives over it, and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time," he said on his radio show.

Limbaugh added: "I'm talking about people having a good time. These people, you ever heard of emotional release? You heard of need to blow some steam off?"


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localne...df1020029.html
Thats disgusting.
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Old 05-12-2004, 12:50 PM   #64
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It would have been a lot more disgusting if they had 'blown off steam' by chopping off the prisoners' heads. I do not condone what happened to the Iraqi prisoners, and it was a bad thing for America. But to me beheading is an extreme form of revenge for putting a dog chain or handcuffs and pillowcases on people, and it bothers me that people seem more outraged by what our soldiers did than the beheading and the burning of the bodies of the contractors last month, which was much more drastic.
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Old 05-12-2004, 02:49 PM   #65
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Your missing the part of the report that talks about rape, including of young boys, murder, and acts against dead bodies.

What you sow - you reap

Not that it wasn't sad and disgusting. What did the admin expect when they threw the GC out the window.
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:25 PM   #66
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" ... the United States, for generations, has sustained two parallel but opposed states of mind about military atrocities and human rights: one of U.S. benevolence, generally held by the public, and the other of ends-justify-the-means brutality sponsored by counterinsurgency specialists. Normally the specialists carry out their actions in remote locations with little notice in the national press. That allows the public to sustain its faith in a just America, while hard-nosed security and economic interests are still protected in secret. ": Robert Parry, investigative reporter and author
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:31 PM   #67
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I think this is horrible but it demonstrates a different perception in th eArab world. Who's has not heard of honor killings or acid attacks.

Double Ordeal for Female Prisoners

By Tracy Wilkinson

May 11, 2004 " Los Angeles Times" -- BAGHDAD One woman told her attorney she was forced to disrobe in front of male prison guards. After much coaxing, another woman described how she was raped by U.S. soldiers. Then she fainted.

A U.S. Army report on abuses at Abu Ghraib prison documented one case of an American guard sexually abusing a female detainee, and a Pentagon spokesman said Monday that 1,200 unreleased images of abuse at Abu Ghraib included "inappropriate behavior of a sexual nature."

Whether it was one or numerous cases of rape, many Iraqis believe that sexual abuse of women in U.S.-run jails was rampant. As a result, female prisoners face grave prospects after they are released: denial, ostracism or even death.

A woman who is raped brings shame on her family in the Islamic world. In many cases, rape victims have been killed by their relatives to salvage family honor, although there is no evidence this has happened to women who have been prisoners in Iraq.

"It is like being sentenced to death," said Sheik Mohammed Bashar Faydhi, a senior cleric based at Baghdad's largest Sunni mosque.

edited to add

Focus shifts to jail abuse of women

Luke Harding in Baghdad
Wednesday May 12, 2004
The Guardian

For Huda Shaker, the humiliation began at a checkpoint on the outskirts of Baghdad. The American soldiers demanded to search her handbag. When she refused one of the soldiers pointed his gun towards her chest.
"He pointed the laser sight directly in the middle of my chest," said Professor Shaker, a political scientist at Baghdad University. "Then he pointed to his penis. He told me, 'Come here, bitch, I'm going to fuck you.'"
...

Few women released from US detention have come forward to talk about their experiences in a Muslim society where rape is sometimes equated with shame and victims can be killed to salvage family honour.

According to the New Yorker magazine the photos and videos so far unreleased by the Pentagon show American soldiers "having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner", and a secret report by General Antonio Taguba into the scandal confirms that US guards videotaped and photographed naked female prisoners and that "a male MP [military police] guard" is shown "having sex with a female detainee".

Yesterday Prof Shaker, who began researching the subject this year for Amnesty International, said she believed the woman involved had been killed.

"The girl was called Noor. When I went to her house in Baghdad earlier this year she had disappeared. The neighbours said that she and her family had moved away."

...

But five women are still in solitary confinement in Abu Ghraib's notorious 1A cellblock where as many as 1,500 pictures were taken in November and December.
...
Human rights campaigners say the US military frequently arrests wives and daughters during raids if the male suspect is not at home.

US officials have acknowledged detaining women in the hope of convincing male relatives to provide information: a strategy that is in violation of international law.

"The issue is the system," Nada Doumani of the International Committee of the Red Cross said yesterday.

"It is an absence of judicial guarantees. People are being kept in custody without knowing what for. The system is not fair, precise or properly defined."

Senior US military officers who escorted journalists around Abu Ghraib on Monday admitted that rape had taken place in the cellblock where 19 "high-value" male detainees are also being held.

Asked how it could have happened, Colonel Dave Quantock, who is now in charge of the prison's detention facilities, said: "I don't know. It's all about leadership. Apparently it wasn't there."

Journalists were forbidden from talking to the women, who are kept upstairs in windowless 2.5 metre by 1.5 metre cells. The women wailed and shouted.

They were kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day, Col Quantock said, with only a Koran.

Other allegations being investigated are that a 12- or 13-year-old girl had been stripped naked in the block and paraded in front of male inmates.

Yesterday Prof Shaker said after her ordeal in February her friends dragged her back into the car and drove off. "I vowed never to talk to another American soldier," she said.

She said the US and Britain should learn from the affair. "You can't treat human beings in this way. I hope they have learned from this."
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Old 05-15-2004, 02:47 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wild Angel
It would have been a lot more disgusting if they had 'blown off steam' by chopping off the prisoners' heads. I do not condone what happened to the Iraqi prisoners, and it was a bad thing for America. But to me beheading is an extreme form of revenge for putting a dog chain or handcuffs and pillowcases on people, and it bothers me that people seem more outraged by what our soldiers did than the beheading and the burning of the bodies of the contractors last month, which was much more drastic.
Erm, not just dog chains, handcuffs and pillowcases. Rapes, being beaten to death, misconduct to dead people. Likely by order of higher ranks/intelligence. No way was it just "some rotten apples".
Do you know of the impact of nudity in Arabic world and how humiliating it is for them?

I am so done with US administration - this is the last straw for me. I will remember these images the next time US goverment starts bragging about human rights and democracy. Rumsfeld should step down and they ought to leave it to UN.

I don't condone what happened to Berg but do you equal one man with the hundreds of tortured and abused Iraquis? Western lives are worth more than Arabic, is that it?
There's worse things than dying, and sexual abuse/rape is one of them IMO.

I am outraged because
a) it looks like Berg was beheaded by Al Zarqavi, a terrorist, not Iraqui civilians,
b) the West has Rule of law, Geneva convention etc... one of the things that ought to make us know better than to use such methods
c) coalition was supposed to prevent exactly horrific things like that from happening ever again.
d) how can the West ask for human treating of prisoners when it failed to do that in the first place?
e) maybe the worst of all, the superiors were notified about it by Red cross, Amnesty international, they KNEW about it and did nothing. Punishing the direct violaters is the tip of the berg, the investigation should go all the way up to whoever knew and kept quiet = implicite condoning if you ask me.

It's sickening how some in the US (saw it on CNN) say "oh they killed those 4 guys and dragged them it's ok what we're doing to them". NEITHER was ok, but I wouldn't be surprised if more Iraquis started hating US soldiers for that - imagine the uproar in the US if that kind of abuse was to happend to American troops.
It's redicioulus to say "they didn't know the Geneva convention". It's common sense and decency not to do that kind of things to another human being.
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Old 05-15-2004, 05:27 PM   #69
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I just saw Colin Powell at the economic meeting in Jordan on CNN. It looked like even the Jordanians, usually U.S. allies, were barely tolerating the guy's presence. The King made a speech in which he made it clear that they didn't need the U.S. or any other outside power to lecture them about democracy and human rights, they'll make the changes themselves, thank you very much. I wouldn't have expected it to be any different. Our credibility is shot to hell, and it will probably take a solid *decade* to repair the damage that's been done. This was *not* just a "mistake" in a political campaign. It's an international disaster. I feel like I've been part of a monumental sin against the human race because my government was mixed up in this . Damn.
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Old 05-15-2004, 05:47 PM   #70
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I've heared that some of the people who commited abuse and torture in this prison worked at Guatamo Bay prison before, anyone who can verify/falsify this information?
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Old 05-16-2004, 04:14 AM   #71
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Guantanamo, Afghanistan, Iraq...they probably did it everywhere.

BTW, did you hear what NY Times is saying? Rumsfeld himself gave the OK for these methods.
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Old 05-16-2004, 10:37 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl
Guantanamo, Afghanistan, Iraq...they probably did it everywhere.

BTW, did you hear what NY Times is saying? Rumsfeld himself gave the OK for these methods.
Do you have the link for this? I'd like to see it. I'm not surprised. I have never liked Rumsfeld, but this really is the straw that broke the camel's back.
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Old 05-16-2004, 11:10 AM   #73
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The damning stuff about Rumsfeld is in the New Yorker magazine, and not surprisingly it's hitting the press in the Middle East like a ton of bricks.
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Old 05-16-2004, 03:24 PM   #74
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Here's the link.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact
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Old 05-16-2004, 03:55 PM   #75
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Thanks for this Link verte!

I just wanted to add that the Jurnalist who wrote this story, mr Hersh has high reputation, he won the Pulitzer Prize and 4 George Polk Awards.

And to me his story makes sense if you look how important it was for the US that their enemies in Afghanistan were not treated after Geneva Convention but were ranked as i.c. without rights.
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