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Old 05-01-2004, 10:43 AM   #16
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This is another perspective on the use of mercenaries, that are outside regular troops restrictions. It is a horrible incident and the most disturbing is the grins on the soldiers faces.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...206725,00.html

The scandal has also brought to light the growing and largely unregulated role of private contractors in the interrogation of detainees.

Lawyers for the soldiers argue they are being made scapegoats for a rogue military prison system in which mercenaries give orders without legal accountability.

A military report into the Abu Ghraib case - parts of which were made available to the Guardian - makes it clear that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison, which was notorious for torture and executions under Saddam Hussein.

One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him.

...

But this is the first time the privatisation of interrogation and intelligence-gathering has come to light. The investigation names two US contractors, CACI International Inc and the Titan Corporation, for their involvement in Abu Ghraib.

Pretty scary I think.
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Old 05-01-2004, 02:11 PM   #17
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Normal

The reason this is such a big issue is because of the photographic evidence.



Reports of abuse have been circulating for months.




If there were no pictures these stories would all be called lies or at best exaggerations.



War is an ugly business. The abuse of the 4 contractors outraged and incensed Americans. Rightfully so.


Our abuse and humiliation, making naked Iraqi men do oral sex on other naked Iraqi men with American women watching and laughing will leave us with little credibility on the "Arab Street"

God help us all.
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Old 05-01-2004, 03:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Reports of abuse have been circulating for months.

If there were no pictures these stories would all be called lies or at best exaggerations.
Exactly, in every country there is the myth that "our soldiers" would never ever harm any innocent person, they allways act in self defense and 100% of them are honest, brave etc.

But of course in every country in every army you have these "black spots"

Today there were also pictures circling around in the european press that the British Soldiers did similar things in iraq but nothing could be prooven yet.

Anyway this situation explains why the Red Cross, ai, medicins sans frontiers etc. need access to ALL prisinors, and why it's dangerous to treat some of them outside of the genova convention.
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Old 05-02-2004, 03:04 AM   #19
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The pictures in the daily mirror could be fake,...

On those pictures you can see a truck, weapons and hats that are not been used by the British army in Iraq.
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Old 05-02-2004, 06:41 AM   #20
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Rono: i hope it's a fake but the abuse by the US soldiers seem to be true:

New Yorker

and

BBC

Janis Karpinski (US Brigadier-General) told the NY Times that the blocks in Abu Ghraib prison where inmates have bin tortured were under direct control of army intelligence and CIA.

And Amnesty International:
"Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident. It is not enough for the USA to react only once images have hit the television screens"
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Old 05-02-2004, 08:33 AM   #21
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I am sickened by this and I feel that these guys should be handed over to the "arab street" for a few hours.

Having said that I believe justice is about how you think and not how you feel. There needs to be an open and transperant investigation into the treatment of Iraqi prisoners that can get to the bottom of this situation. I fear that if there is not a balanced look at what is wrong and how the problem can be adressed peoples imaginations will just run wild and the next time a group claims a genocidal massacre by the US it will be believed without evidence. Those that engaged in these acts knew the rules and they must be punished to the full extent of the law.

We cannot let a just cause fail because of the actions of the few, to do so would only mean more suffering for the innocents caught in the crossfire.
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Old 05-03-2004, 04:28 AM   #22
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Todays Tagesschau (who quote Seymour Hersh)

and

New York Times

Quote:
But it is far from clear that the American brass has done everything it needs to do. Gen. Richard Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, appeared on CBS yesterday to offer assurances that "we took very quick action to investigate that situation." But General Myers said he had not yet read a corrosive internal report on the military prison system written in February. "It's working its way to me," he told Bob Schieffer of CBS.

That report, prepared by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, was described by Seymour Hersh in this week's New Yorker. He quoted General Taguba as saying the military police and intelligence officials had committed "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses," including sodomizing a prisoner "with a chemical light and perhaps a broomstick."

The theory that these horrific acts were committed by a few renegade soldiers has been undercut by charges that the men and women shown in the pictures were actually working at the direction of military intelligence officers.
Say that it wasn't done by a few soldiers and it was known since last summer what hapened in that prison.

According to Mr. Seymour Hersh there were much more abuses and torture.

(for example with Phosphor-accid, icy water, threatening prisinors with sexual abuse and some of them were even sexual abused with broomsticks and sometimes neon lamps).

What the hell was going on there? I wished the army reacted faster and i hope the responsible men and women and all who supported them have to take the responsibility soon.
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Old 05-03-2004, 04:51 AM   #23
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Seeing these pictures sickens me. It degrades the good servicemen & women over there.
Watch out for payback. If I was an Iraqi right now, I'd be pretty
pissed off.
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Old 05-03-2004, 08:13 AM   #24
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Hello,

The first soldiers accused of mistreatment of prisoners have been punished.
From the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/124/...members:.shtml

Quote:
Seven American service members reprimanded in alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners

By Jim Krane, Associated Press, 5/3/2004 05:37

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) Seven U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded in connection with the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners carried out by guards at Baghdad's notorious Abu Ghraib prison, a senior military official said on Monday.

...

The military official said he believed investigations of the officers were complete and they would not face further action or court martial. However, the reprimands could spell the end of their careers.
I don't know the US military system that well to judge whether or not these punishments are on average or low, but I am surprised the soldiers do not get any prison time.

C ya!

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Old 05-03-2004, 08:16 AM   #25
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And here's an article from the same Boston Globe with an account from a prisoner in that camp.
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/124/...ays_all:.shtml

Quote:
Former Iraqi prisoner says allegations of U.S. abuse conform to his experience

By Scheherezade Faramarzi, Associated Press, 5/3/2004 05:13

NAJAF, Iraq (AP) A former Iraqi prisoner says the allegations that inmates at Baghdad's notorious Abu Ghraib prison have suffered indignities at the hands of their American guards came as no shock to him.

In an interview Sunday with The Associated Press, Dhia al-Shweiri said he too was stripped naked during his stay in the prison and the humiliation was worse than the torture he endured under Saddam Hussein.

...

Like many Shiite Muslims, he said he first felt gratitude toward the Americans for ending their brutal repression under Saddam, a Sunni.

''I hated Saddam so much that when the Americans came, I viewed them as liberators. I was happy and supported them. But soon it became clear that they are no liberators but occupiers,'' he said. ''I had seen how oppressed people were under Saddam and I refused to give in to oppression and injustice. We must fight oppression.''

When al-Shweiri left American detention, he said his hatred for Saddam was replaced with one for America and two months ago he joined al-Sadr's militia.
And some wonder why there's so much resistance against the US occupation...


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Old 05-03-2004, 04:14 PM   #26
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Is it now too cynical to quote Rumsfeld:
"Freedom's untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and
commit crimes and do bad things"
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Old 05-03-2004, 06:16 PM   #27
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I'm disgusted and angry. I can't even imagine what it's like to be an Iraqi right now. Sheesh.
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Old 05-04-2004, 05:08 AM   #28
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Well, it looks like the civilian contractors ('mercenaries') won't be punished for their part in the abuse.

From the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...ce_no_charges/

Quote:
Civilians ID'd in abuse may face no charges

By Farah Stockman, Globe Staff | May 4, 2004

WASHINGTON -- A legal loophole could allow four American civilian contractors allegedly involved in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners to escape punishment, US military officials and specialists said yesterday.

...

But the four civilian workers identified in an internal army report for their involvement in the physical and sexual mistreatment of the prisoners -- including the alleged rape of one detainee -- cannot be punished under military law, and it is unclear whether they will face any charges under either US or Iraqi laws.

The army report -- written in February and obtained by a reporter for the New Yorker magazine -- found evidence that civilian interrogators employed by the Virginia-based firm CACI and civilian interpreters with the San Diego-based Titan Corp were directly involved in the abuses at the prison. Abu Ghraib is a place once notorious for the torture carried out under the rule of Saddam Hussein but now at the center of an international scandal over apparent human rights abuses at the hands of Americans.

The allegations of prisoner abuse, ranging from sodomizing a prisoner with a chemical lightstick, to forcing Iraqi prisoners to simulate sex acts on film, to connecting wires to the genitals of one prisoner, have also raised new questions on the role of civilian interrogators in Iraq and on the heavier military reliance on private contractors who often operate outside the code of military conduct and largely under their own rules.
Great. Outsource military duties, that way nobody is responsible for any abuse...



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Old 05-04-2004, 07:57 AM   #29
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BBC quotes the Daily Mirror:
"The newspaper says the sources for its photos are two members of the regiment who are standing by their account of what happened. "

So we will see if this is true.

Tageschau.de takes a closer look on older reports about torture in afghanistan (Also discussed here in FYM)
A Prison where no Journalists, Familiy members, Lawyers oder Human rights activists were allowed to take a look inside.
There is a 59-Pages report of "Human Rights Watch" about torture by US-Soldiers in that prison. 3 People died by the treatment in the prison.
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Old 05-06-2004, 05:03 PM   #30
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1st, I cannot put into words exactly how horrified I am that these were soldiers from my country. I have always taken great pride in joinin the service, and serving my country. I have attended Basic Training and Military Police School. I have attended the Non-Commissioned Officers Acadamy.

As an MP I was taught by my instructors that I was to be a better soldier than every other soldier. It was drilled into our heads that we needed to be be a better soldier than other soldiers because we were supposed to be the soldiers that enforced the rules. Our motto "assist, protect, defend" was supposed to be the crede we lived by.

The other fact that bothers me is that these were Nation Guardsman. People that very often catch the most flack going through boot camp because they are not in the regular army. Sadly they have endangered the reputations of the regular army.

I have held back comment on this for days. I wish I could say I'm sorry to someone and have it mean something.

These people deserve to be punished for a long time.


Here is a link to the investigationg Generals report. The only thing that makes me proud is that in the report it speaks of MP Units and Individuals who did do their job, with pride, and did it correctly.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/
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