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Old 06-04-2007, 10:00 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well you made this generalization, so I presumed you did:


Where did I make this assumption ???? "To assume those that don't care of their potential leaders religion aren't people of faith is ridiculous"
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:01 AM   #32
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Well I suppose that's true if you want to judge all Christians by one Christian.


i agree with you, but the point i was trying to make is that George Bush predicated much of his presidency on the message that "i am a christian/person of faith/believer/born-again, i speak your language, i share your values, vote for me on the basis of that and that alone."

he was saying, in essence, that all Christians are the same, and if you are a Christian, then vote for one.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:03 AM   #33
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Originally posted by toscano


The democrats should have won the LAST election easily. An incumbent President fighting an unpopular war in a down economy. The dems forgot to read their copy of "fighting elections for dummies" and got their lunch eaten.

Voters of Faith are a part of the electorate they just ignored. A huge part.


i sort of agree -- except that in 2004 the war wasn't as much of a clear failure as it is today, so it was really the democrats trying to oust an incumbent in a time of war. not an easy thing.

what's also more significant about Bush is that the economy is doing really rather well, we're at nearly full employment, but he's at 28%. astonishing.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:04 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but i can also say that putting a premium on the professed faith of a potential candidate is bad for democracy and bad for the country.


Expressed as your opinion, sure. To some faith-based voters, that may not be true.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

but the conflating of Republicanism with Christianism has done significant long term damage to the party, particularly in the view of those under the age of 40.

so it's not just bad for America, it's bad for Republicans.
Let's hope you're right !
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:10 AM   #35
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Originally posted by unico

i don't think this is as much about how people should "vote for their faith" as it is attracting the "faith based" voters. the democrats could win this election easily if they were to even earn the vote of just some of these types of voters.
I guess what I find odd is that in no other Western democracy do you need to talk in code to "faith based" voters of any stripe. I am pretty sure that if you had this kind of gathering on TV in Canada or Germany or Sweden, the public would respond with "You can't possibly be serious." And if we are able to elect candidates with what seems to be a far better moral compass than your current offering, then I guess I don't really understand why this is necessary.

I'm not saying it's wrong - it's perfectly fine to have this debate. It's just culturally entirely foreign to probably the entire rest of the Western world. And I really believe religion nor faith based voting has any place at all in politics. JMO.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:15 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by toscano


Where did I make this assumption ???? "To assume those that don't care of their potential leaders religion aren't people of faith is ridiculous"
I showed you, if I'm wrong then I stand corrected. But you stated:

Quote:
The funny thing about people of faith, is that the depth of faith of their potential leaders matters to them. It's (gasp) part of their faith !
Well I'm a person of faith, but I do not fit in the statement you made above. Maybe I shouldn't have used religion and faith interchangably, but it always bothers me to use the same word over again in a sentence.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:18 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
okay, so, if faith matters, and what one says about one's faith is an accurate representation of their "moral compass," then, based upon the last 7 years, i can only ever vote for atheists, agnostics, jews, buddhists, and hindus.

no christians. ever again. christians like to torture. christians like to politicize the justice department. christians like to allow disasters like 9-11 and Katrina to happen under their watch and do absolutely nothing. christians like tax cuts for the rich. christians scapegoat gay people like the nazis scapgoated jews. christians invade middle eastern countries using intelligence fabrications and then don't have the competence to effectively manage the postwar and will then turn around and blame the occupied for being no good at democracy.

if faith matters, then this is precisely how it matters.
This is exactly why many of us who have faith are excited to hear the democrats share their faith perspectives. Bush has not only gotten things wrong, he's given Christianity a black eye in the process.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:19 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




i agree with you, but the point i was trying to make is that George Bush predicated much of his presidency on the message that "i am a christian/person of faith/believer/born-again, i speak your language, i share your values, vote for me on the basis of that and that alone."

he was saying, in essence, that all Christians are the same, and if you are a Christian, then vote for one.

I understand that-but Jim Wallis is all about countering that. So if forums like this can make people see that it can be countered and remind them that it needs to be, well I think just that makes it worth it. Religion doesn't belong in the Oval Office, but that doesn't mean it can't stay in someone's heart who occupies that office and inform their concern for social justice (which is the main message of Jesus and anyone else that any faith believes in as far as I'm concerned-and as far as many Christians and people of other faiths are concerned). The real challenge is to keep it properly checked and balanced and to know the line that should not be crossed.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:21 AM   #39
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I don't know when you all are going to realize we can't believe a word any of these people say and we have no viable options
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:23 AM   #40
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^Maybe we shouldn't take every sentence as an absolute. I don't think toscano meant to say "The funny thing about all people of faith...", but rather in a way of "The funny thing about some/many/whatever people of faith..."
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:24 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I showed you, if I'm wrong then I stand corrected.
corrected you are
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:26 AM   #42
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
^Maybe we shouldn't take every sentence as an absolute. I don't think toscano meant to say "The funny thing about all people of faith...", but rather in a way of "The funny thing about some/many/whatever people of faith..."
This is why qualifiers are so important in communicating with the written word.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:26 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
[B]^Maybe we shouldn't take every sentence as an absolute. I don't think toscano meant to say "The funny thing about all people of faith...", but rather in a way of "The funny thing about [b]some/many/whatever people of faith..."
this is fym, I am a slow learner, I haven't yet grasped that qualifiers are needed at all times lest one leaves oneself open to misinterpretations, can't assume (or presume) common sense is always present

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Old 06-04-2007, 10:28 AM   #44
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Originally posted by AnnRKeyintheUSA
and we have no viable options
So we're just doomed?
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:30 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen



I understand that-but Jim Wallis is all about countering that. So if forums like this can make people see that it can be countered and remind them that it needs to be, well I think just that makes it worth it. Religion doesn't belong in the Oval Office, but that doesn't mean it can't stay in someone's heart who occupies that office and inform their concern for social justice (which is the main message of Jesus and anyone else that any faith believes in as far as I'm concerned-and as far as many Christians and people of other faiths are concerned). The real challenge is to keep it properly checked and balanced and to know the line that should not be crossed.
Like it or not some people WILL vote based on their RELIGIOUS faith , Wallis is giving the candidates an avenue to reach out to them, this is a good thing
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