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Old 06-04-2007, 12:40 AM   #16
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Originally posted by coemgen
To me, a candidate's faith isn't the only reason I vote for them, but I think it's good to know what their faith is. It likely is kind of their foundation for many, if not all, of their beliefs and views, so it can be important. Again, their ability to lead and many other things should factor in, but if we want somebody who will speak and lead for us it's good to know who they are at the core . . . as much as we can tell.

Plus, in an era where the Republicans have hijacked the Christian faith and used it as a political machine and even gone against many Christian principals, it's interesting and refreshing to know where the Democrat candidates stand in their faith. That's why it's a big issue this time around. Jim Wallis and Sojourners are doing a great thing in raising the level of discussion.
Thanks coemgen . . . this is what I think of of when I think of faith. I don't think someone's religion is what is all that important to know but rather what their principles and beliefs are like. Hopefully we'll get a better look at the democrat candidates tomorrow. Thanks too for keeping the discussion real and practical.
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:44 AM   #17
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Originally posted by hotpepper
I don't think someone's religion is what is all that important to know but rather what their principles and beliefs are like.
But what does that have to do with their faith? Bush claims to be a man of faith and his principles are appalling and even heinous to me. What can you gather about a person's principles by hearing them talk about their faith? Their actions speak a hell of a lot louder to me than what Church they attend or what faith they profess to have.
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:49 AM   #18
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Originally posted by toscano


The funny thing about people of faith, is that the depth of faith of their potential leaders matters to them. It's (gasp) part of their faith !

Thanks for the info, I've followed Wallis's activities for a long time, I think he's a good man with his heart (and brain) in th eright place, I think he'd be a better candidate than almost all the Dems !
You're welcome. I didn't know about Wallis until recently - the book looks intriguing. I'm not a person associated with a certain faith. I guess that I just find it important to see where someone's morality lies and often it can be seen by their faith or beliefs. Based on the faith of the person "in charge" right now, we definitely need someone with a different sense of morality.
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:58 AM   #19
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But what does that have to do with their faith? Bush claims to be a man of faith and his principles are appalling and even heinous to me. What can you gather about a person's principles by hearing them talk about their faith? Their actions speak a hell of a lot louder to me than what Church they attend or what faith they profess to have.
The forum tomorrow is supposedly also going to address values and poverty. Of the three, I was actually drawn to this topic because I 'd like to know what plans the candidates have to meet the millennium goals and reduce extreme poverty.

I looked up faith in the Encarta Dictionary. Here's what it says:

faith n
1. belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
2. a system of religious belief, or the group of people who adhere to it
3. belief in and devotion to God
4. a strongly held set of beliefs or principles
5. allegiance or loyalty to somebody or something

#4 means the most to me in relation to tomorrow's forum. I'm sure the whole God thing will probably come up. If someone says that God will fix everything then I'd be the first to tune them out. If someone demonstrates concrete ideas based on a good set of moral principles then I'll be more likely to hear them out. I find it rather interesting how fired up people get when religion is broached.
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Old 06-04-2007, 07:21 AM   #20
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i think there is a misunderstanding. this forum is hosted by sojourner's, a well known "religious left" organization. and only one question of the list is asking for concrete examples of integrating faith and politics. the rest address:

promoting alternative energy
inequity of public education
millenium development goals commitment
Darfur
disarmament (for ourselves!)
immigration reform
the gap between the rich and the poor

what is wrong with discussing this? what sojourners is trying to do is to grab the attention of people of faith and show that there are more faith values than just abortion, which is what the republicans have used to monopolize the religious voters. i think this is a great forum, and though i miss it every year (obama was there last year, i can't remember who else) i do look forward to what comes out of it.
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Old 06-04-2007, 08:05 AM   #21
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Originally posted by unico

what is wrong with discussing this?
Absolutely nothing. There are plenty of issues surrounding faith that are worth discussing that have nothing to do with shoving your religion down anyone's throat-even though it seems sometimes that some people in FYM don't think so. I don't care to have any President talking about his or her faith in their political decisions and philosophies outside the context of how it might have anything to do with social justice issues like the ones you listed. I don't see any of the Democratic candidates doing that so far- and if they want to talk about their personal faith outside the context of their politics and how they would run the country, I see nothing wrong with that either. It helps me know a bit more about someone even though it has no effect whatsoever in how I vote.

And I am the first one to object to many of the ways in which Bush brings up faith as I think they are completely inappropriate. If he wants to talk personally about his faith, fine. But leave God and religion out of the public description of your political decision making about foreign policy and the like. He has nothing to do with all of that, He has far more important things to do. And He isn't a big fan of war...

Thanks for posting hotpepper I think Jim Wallis is a brilliant man.
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Old 06-04-2007, 08:20 AM   #22
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okay, so, if faith matters, and what one says about one's faith is an accurate representation of their "moral compass," then, based upon the last 7 years, i can only ever vote for atheists, agnostics, jews, buddhists, and hindus.

no christians. ever again. christians like to torture. christians like to politicize the justice department. christians like to allow disasters like 9-11 and Katrina to happen under their watch and do absolutely nothing. christians like tax cuts for the rich. christians scapegoat gay people like the nazis scapgoated jews. christians invade middle eastern countries using intelligence fabrications and then don't have the competence to effectively manage the postwar and will then turn around and blame the occupied for being no good at democracy.

if faith matters, then this is precisely how it matters.
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Old 06-04-2007, 08:38 AM   #23
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i think it goes without saying that many of us here rather vote for somebody's competency rather than what they do on their sundays. this sojo forum isn't for that. all it's doing is trying to open up a point of view (f the religious left) that i think goes overlooked.

i don't care what faith one candidate is, as long as their policies are align with my ideals for this country, then they have my vote. however, there are a lot of people out there with a dualistic thinking, and their participation in politics is within the confines of their church. if more forums like these can get the kids in jesus camp to open their eyes and look at other issues that go right along with their faith, then i'm all for it.

i don't think this is as much about how people should "vote for their faith" as it is attracting the "faith based" voters. the democrats could win this election easily if they were to even earn the vote of just some of these types of voters.
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Old 06-04-2007, 08:42 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Irvine511
okay, so, if faith matters, and what one says about one's faith is an accurate representation of their "moral compass," then, based upon the last 7 years, i can only ever vote for atheists, agnostics, jews, buddhists, and hindus.

no christians. ever again. christians like to torture. christians like to politicize the justice department. christians like to allow disasters like 9-11 and Katrina to happen under their watch and do absolutely nothing. christians like tax cuts for the rich. christians scapegoat gay people like the nazis scapgoated jews. christians invade middle eastern countries using intelligence fabrications and then don't have the competence to effectively manage the postwar and will then turn around and blame the occupied for being no good at democracy.

if faith matters, then this is precisely how it matters.
Well I suppose that's true if you want to judge all Christians by one Christian. Plenty of Christians wouldn't operate in that way. GWB and other Republicans hardly have a monopoly on faith based actions, and that's part of Jim Wallis' points-taking it back and taking it back to where it belongs. That's precisely how it matters.

Moral compass and faith/religion aren't the same for me-you can have a wonderful moral compass without being religious and you can be religious without your particular religion defining everything about your moral compass.
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:32 AM   #25
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Originally posted by unico


i don't think this is as much about how people should "vote for their faith" as it is attracting the "faith based" voters. the democrats could win this election easily if they were to even earn the vote of just some of these types of voters.
The democrats should have won the LAST election easily. An incumbent President fighting an unpopular war in a down economy. The dems forgot to read their copy of "fighting elections for dummies" and got their lunch eaten.

Voters of Faith are a part of the electorate they just ignored. A huge part.
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:37 AM   #26
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Originally posted by Irvine511



and those who would not self-describe as someone "of faith" would argue that this isn't a good thing.

But people who ARE self-described a speople of Faith are a huge part of the electorate, and it DOES matter to them, regardless of what we think should/shouldn't matter to them. It's not your or my place to say what should matter to another individual. Even to those of us who are faith-less or of marginal faith, have different things we'd like to see in our leaders, different things we care about, no ?
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:44 AM   #27
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


There are plenty of "people of faith" that it doesn't matter to as well. To assume those that don't care of their potential leaders religion aren't people of faith is ridiculous.
Who made that assumption ?

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


We elect the person who can do the best job.

I wish. Seems like we actually elect the smoothest liar with the most money. At least for the last 3 or 4 elections anyway.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Do you care about the faith of the CEO that runs the company you work for?
Are CEO's elected ? I care he has enough morality to take care of the corporate coffers and not get into trouble with the SEC, but not to the exclusion of every other quality required

Faith of a potential leader isn't high on my list of careabouts, I'd be more impressed if he / she didn't wear it on their sleeve and rather acted it out in their own time without trying to make it a core part of their persona in a blatant attempt to win votes a la Bush
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:51 AM   #28
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I think many of us are clouding faith, moral compass, principles, and religion all together.

I've met ministers with horrible moral compasses, people of faith with very questionable priciples, and athiest with some of the strongest moral code.
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:55 AM   #29
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Originally posted by toscano


Who made that assumption ?
Well you made this generalization, so I presumed you did:
Quote:
The funny thing about people of faith, is that the depth of faith of their potential leaders matters to them. It's (gasp) part of their faith !
Quote:
Originally posted by toscano


Faith of a potential leader isn't high on my list of careabouts, I'd be more impressed if he / she didn't wear it on their sleeve and rather acted it out in their own time without trying to make it a core part of their persona in a blatant attempt to win votes a la Bush
Well we're on the same page there.
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Old 06-04-2007, 09:59 AM   #30
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But people who ARE self-described a speople of Faith are a huge part of the electorate, and it DOES matter to them, regardless of what we think should/shouldn't matter to them. It's not your or my place to say what should matter to another individual. Even to those of us who are faith-less or of marginal faith, have different things we'd like to see in our leaders, different things we care about, no ?


but i can also say that putting a premium on the professed faith of a potential candidate is bad for democracy and bad for the country. in the same way that i think that single-issue voters are bad for democracy. people are free to do whatever they want, and i'm free to criticize them.

and we've also witness the demise of the Republican Party under the unhealthy mixing of religion and politics. sure, it barely eeked out the 2004 election for Bush, and he won the 2000 election on a technicality, but the conflating of Republicanism with Christianism has done significant long term damage to the party, particularly in the view of those under the age of 40.

so it's not just bad for America, it's bad for Republicans.
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