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Old 07-21-2006, 11:28 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Threads like this don't allow for discussion. Ask a question, it is ignored.

I'd ask the simple question - what is the point of the thread? To discuss whether the action is appropriate (as has this been confirmed - didn't we see a faked tape of the Italian Prime Minister "goose" a parking cop?)? Or to say how wrong Bush is and ridicule anyone who posts differently?
Yes, it's real. And yes there has been discussion but many have decided to look past that. I answered your questions, and you ignored mine...

This thread has reminded me of one thing, conservatives still think sexism is a figment of the liberal's imagination...
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:46 AM   #92
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If the roles were reversed, and the Chancellor did this to Bush, can you even imagine what would be said about her? For those who don't understand why Bush's behavior was inappropriate, please just imagine the roles reversed and what the response might be. Or imagine any female executive you know doing this to a male executive (it's actually pretty hard for me to imagine since it basically would not happen).
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:51 AM   #93
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Your question:

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Does it matter?
Was your “answer” to my question:

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
How long was he "massaging" her?
Which was prompted by your comment:

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
They may touch them on the shoulders as a polite way to say hi, as one approaches from behind, but they don't stay and massage them.
(I underlined the key word there).

Sorry I had to recreate the attempt at discussion.

So, I’ll answer “Yes” considering you appear to place a time factor on the appropriateness of the incident.

So instead of resorting to cheap “figments of imagination” comments, do you want to go back and discuss the issue?
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:53 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl
If the roles were reversed, and the Chancellor did this to Bush, can you even imagine what would be said about her? For those who don't understand why Bush's behavior was inappropriate, please just imagine the roles reversed and what the response might be. Or imagine any female executive you know doing this to a male executive (it's actually pretty hard for me to imagine since it basically would not happen).
Are we suppose to guess negative comments, positive comments, or that it would be a total non-issue?
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:00 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Was your “answer” to my question:
I later answered your question.


Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Sorry I had to recreate the attempt at discussion.

Wow, that was a creative recreation.

You don't seem to get it. The length of the massage doesn't matter. I ask that you look at the photos once again and show me what is appropriate about what he did.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:05 PM   #96
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Again, on management retreats, where there is a high amount of stress, it's not uncommon for people to give each other a quick shoulder massage. It has nothing to do with harassment, and actually stems from a sense of attempted camaraderie. I've had women give me a quick massage, same as guys. It's not a big deal.

Merkel clearly didn't want it, and communicated it as such. If Merkel had shrugged him off and Bush had continued, then it would have been harassment. But a one second (literally -- watch the video) massage hardly counts as groping, harassment, or even inappropriate, especially considering the weighty issues being discussed at the G8.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:06 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Are we suppose to guess negative comments, positive comments, or that it would be a total non-issue?
I don't know, but I bet there would be no sexist "jokes" made about it by the women who post in FYM. That is the most disgusting and disheartening aspect of this whole thread for me. At least there are men here who will point out how offensive those posts are and who always take a stand against sexism, and I appreciate them and the fact that they do that. They don't care about the crap they take for doing that either, they do it anyway.

I think joyfulgirl makes an excellent point
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:07 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
You don't seem to get it. The length of the massage doesn't matter. I ask that you look at the photos once again and show me what is appropriate about what he did.
Your own comment suggested differently. From your comments, the difference between "touching" the shoulders (which appears to be OK?) and staying and "massaging" the shoulders (which appears to be somewhere between inappropriate and criminal) depends on length of time.


Besides, I just went back again and did not see your response to the question.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:11 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


I don't know, but I bet there would be no sexist "jokes" made about it by the women who post in FYM. That is the most disgusting and disheartening aspect of this whole thread for me. At least there are men here who will point out how offensive those posts are and who always take a stand against sexism, and I appreciate them and the fact that they do that. They don't care about the crap they take for doing that either, they do it anyway.

I think joyfulgirl makes an excellent point
Perhaps you would get sexist, smart ass responses from some people. Frankly, while I am not a "touchy" persons (those who touch while talking face to face), if the roles were reversed - the incident would be a non-issue at a minimum, and I would appreciate world leaders connecting at a personal level.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:13 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Again, on management retreats, where there is a high amount of stress, it's not uncommon for people to give each other a quick shoulder massage. It has nothing to do with harassment, and actually stems from a sense of attempted camaraderie. I've had women give me a quick massage, same as guys. It's not a big deal.

Merkel clearly didn't want it, and communicated it as such. If Merkel had shrugged him off and Bush had continued, then it would have been harassment. But a one second (literally -- watch the video) massage hardly counts as groping, harassment, or even inappropriate, especially considering the weighty issues being discussed at the G8.
Are these massages that you give each other consentual? You keep missing this point...
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:16 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


I don't know, but I bet there would be no sexist "jokes" made about it by the women who post in FYM. That is the most disgusting and disheartening aspect of this whole thread for me. At least there are men here who will point out how offensive those posts are and who always take a stand against sexism, and I appreciate them and the fact that they do that. They don't care about the crap they take for doing that either, they do it anyway.
Exactly!

Men have no idea what it's like to be a woman in this world anymore than a white person knows what it's like to be black or a straight person knows what it's like to be gay. Yet you have at least one man here suggesting that the woman in question should be HAPPY she has a man touching her given she looks like such a "hag." It's a disgusting comment and not funny in the slightest.

Bush is inappropriate in a hundred different ways but it's not his behaviour in that short clip that is the worst thing on this thread.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:19 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Your own comment suggested differently. From your comments, the difference between "touching" the shoulders (which appears to be OK?) and staying and "massaging" the shoulders (which appears to be somewhere between inappropriate and criminal) depends on length of time.
No it depends on intent. One is an acknolegement the other is a MASSAGE. One involves one simple hand movement, the other involves more than one and more complex hand movements.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Besides, I just went back again and did not see your response to the question.
Quote:
Can a massage be non-sexual or hostile? Yes.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:20 PM   #103
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If this is based on intent, where are you getting Bush's intent???
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:24 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
If this is based on intent, where are you getting Bush's intent???
You can see from the pictures he went beyond "hello".
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:29 PM   #105
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Bush used errant judgement on his part in this situation.
Altho innocent in his motives this was a faux pau on his part.

dbs
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