President gives unwelcome massage to Chancellor of Germany

[MumblingBono]

standard Bush assclownery

 

[nbcrusader]

Do you mean someone intends to be a racist? I don't understand your line of questioning.

What is so difficult to understand?

If you are going to charge someone as being racist or sexist, should there be a showing of racist or sexist intent?

Or can you make the charge based on an action ("strict liability") irrespective of the individual's intent.

 

[BVS]

What is so difficult to understand?

If you are going to charge someone as being racist or sexist, should there be a showing of racist or sexist intent?

Or can you make the charge based on an action ("strict liability") irrespective of the individual's intent.

Seems pretty obvious that intent isn't needed.

 

[najeena]

Bush acted in the most immature way a man in his position could. At a global meeting of world leaders in front of cameras, my God... what could he have been thinking? Was he under the influence of some drug? The unwanted touching, the swearing, the open-mouth chewing that most five-year olds can't get away with... it only cements the opinion that most people have of him. God knows people can and do act this way, but he did it for all the world to see.

 

[VintagePunk]

I think what it boils down to, whether or not the Bush supporters care to agree, in the world arena he's portraying himself as a big, dumb, ill-mannered oaf.

 

[maycocksean]

I don't think it helps when the press focused on sensationalism and grabbing headlines use gratuitous words like "molest" and "grope." I saw the video, and I think MOST of us would agree that it was a dopey thing to do that implies perhaps a cluelessness about what is appropriate behavior between two world leaders, and one could even go so far as to suggest implies an UNCONSCIOUS sexist attitude towards women.

However the overblown language makes it difficult for us to reach any kind of reasonable consensus.

Mrs. S, I have to agree with you, the worst thing on this thread has not been the pictures of Bush's bumblings but somehow of the blatantly sexist comments made on this thread. My jaw dropped to the floor at some of the things I read. Just want you to know that here's a man (and a young one) who finds such comments unacceptable.

 

[nbcrusader]

Seems pretty obvious that intent isn't needed.

I hope you never make a mistake.

 

[maycocksean]

If you are going to charge someone as being racist or sexist, should there be a showing of racist or sexist intent?

Or can you make the charge based on an action ("strict liability") irrespective of the individual's intent.

Good question, and I believe the answer is to the first question is no, not necessarily. The answer to the second question is yes. Perhaps, not in a legal sense, but in an interpersonal sense, yes, you can charge someone with racism without having racist intent. The fact is, today, except for the most extreme racists, most racism is "unintentional." It has to do with views that are not viewed as "racist" but "true."

Here's an example:

Supposing a white friend of mine, says, "Wow, so you're gonna be a doctor? Cause it seems like black people are better at sports and stuff. Do you think you can handle it?"

Now my friend doesn't intend to be "racist" but he's made racist statement that reflects beliefs he has about the "inherent" capablities of blacks to do certain types of work. He doesn't think of those beliefs as racist, merely "true." Yet that doesn't make those beliefs any less racist.

I believe prejudice is in all of us. It's a part of human nature, and the first step to getting past it is acknowledging that we have it. I've realized that my prejudices towards certain ethnic groups have developed over time, living in Saipan. I have to be aware of that racism and fight against it in myself. In general, I believe a person who says "I'm not a racist" or "I'm not prejudiced" is the most difficult to deal with. They're lying, whether they realize it or not.

 

[BVS]

I hope you never make a mistake.

I make mistake all the time, but I'm not going to "mistakingly" throw out a slur because I don't think that way. I'm not going to mistakingly make a woman uncomfortable or demeaned because I don't think that way...

 

[80sU2isBest]

Bush acted in the most immature way a man in his position could. At a global meeting of world leaders in front of cameras, my God... what could he have been thinking? Was he under the influence of some drug? The unwanted touching, the swearing, the open-mouth chewing that most five-year olds can't get away with... it only cements the opinion that most people have of him. God knows people can and do act this way, but he did it for all the world to see.

The fuss over the "swearing" was way overblown. The word s*** is nothing compared to the words that have slipped out of other presidents' mouths when they weren't aware they culd be heard. Jiminy Cricket.

 

[Salome]

I think what it boils down to, whether or not the Bush supporters care to agree, in the world arena he's portraying himself as a big, dumb, ill-mannered oaf.

well, to be quite honest
if it wasn't for this forum I probably wouldn't have heard of it

especially as a man you just don't go invading a woman's private space though
it is just not done
(and if Merkel and Bush are friends then even I must have 100 friends)

 

[VintagePunk]

well, to be quite honest
if it wasn't for this forum I probably wouldn't have heard of it

especially as a man you just don't go invading a woman's private space though
it is just not done
(and if Merkel and Bush are friends then even I must have 100 friends)

The brief film clip has been shown on television. I saw it a few days before this thread started.

 

[nbcrusader]

I make mistake all the time, but I'm not going to "mistakingly" throw out a slur because I don't think that way. I'm not going to mistakingly make a woman uncomfortable or demeaned because I don't think that way...

You are relying on your own intent.

Judgment befall on those who's actions are labeled wrong by others.

You may not feel you are making a women uncomfortable, but if she (or anyone else) says otherwise, you are sexist.

 

[Salome]

You are relying on your own intent.

Judgment befall on those who's actions are labeled wrong by others.

You may not feel you are making a women uncomfortable, but if she (or anyone else) says otherwise, you are sexist.

that only makes a stronger case for making sure you won't get into a situation where people are to interpret your actions

 

[nbcrusader]

Good question, and I believe the answer is to the first question is no, not necessarily. The answer to the second question is yes. Perhaps, not in a legal sense, but in an interpersonal sense, yes, you can charge someone with racism without having racist intent. The fact is, today, except for the most extreme racists, most racism is "unintentional." It has to do with views that are not viewed as "racist" but "true."

Here's an example:

Supposing a white friend of mine, says, "Wow, so you're gonna be a doctor? Cause it seems like black people are better at sports and stuff. Do you think you can handle it?"

Now my friend doesn't intend to be "racist" but he's made racist statement that reflects beliefs he has about the "inherent" capablities of blacks to do certain types of work. He doesn't think of those beliefs as racist, merely "true." Yet that doesn't make those beliefs any less racist.

I believe prejudice is in all of us. It's a part of human nature, and the first step to getting past it is acknowledging that we have it. I've realized that my prejudices towards certain ethnic groups have developed over time, living in Saipan. I have to be aware of that racism and fight against it in myself. In general, I believe a person who says "I'm not a racist" or "I'm not prejudiced" is the most difficult to deal with. They're lying, whether they realize it or not.

Good example. I guess the question for the hypothetical is "why did your friend make such an distinction in inherent abilities with the question?"

 

[nbcrusader]

that only makes a stronger case for making sure you won't get into a situation where people are to interpret your actions

I agree with you regarding personal responsibility for the appearance of our actions. I would suggest we take this in a very broad sense.

 

[Salome]

so do I

 

[BVS]

Judgment befall on those who's actions are labeled wrong by others.

So if others don't label them wrong does that make them right?

You may not feel you are making a women uncomfortable, but if she (or anyone else) says otherwise, you are sexist.

Only she can tell me if I'm making her uncomfortable.

 

[nbcrusader]

Only she can tell me if I'm making her uncomfortable.

Have any of the posts in this thread been based on the statements of Chancellor Merkel?

 

[deep]

Have any of the posts in this thread been based on the statements of Chancellor Merkel?

90% of communication is non-verbal

 

[BVS]

90% of communication is non-verbal

Absolutely. How can people turn a blind eye?

 

[nbcrusader]

Selective blind eye

she appears to smile as Bush walks away

You can take a snippit of anything and create a new story.

 

[deep]

smile? a nervous one

note the clinched fists

 

[BVS]

She looks delighted doesn't she?

 

[deep]

I think he was was under the misguided impression she was under his spell

 

[melon]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/internet/07/21/bush.youtube.ap/index.html

Larry Sabato, professor of politics at the University of Virginia, agrees that today, public figures have to be more careful in "a thousand ways." But he maintains sites like YouTube can be revealing.

"If they're not doing something that's embarrassing, they have nothing to worry about," he says. "A president ought to know enough not to use an expletive in a fairly open meeting and almost any male alive today knows that you don't offer uninvited massages to any female, much less the Chancellor of Germany."

I guess he should have underlined "almost."

Melon

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I have to agree with you, the worst thing on this thread has not been the pictures of Bush's bumblings but somehow of the blatantly sexist comments made on this thread. My jaw dropped to the floor at some of the things I read. Just want you to know that here's a man (and a young one) who finds such comments unacceptable.

Thank you, I do appreciate you saying that and I applaud you. I agree with the rest of your post too.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I guess he should have underlined "almost."

Guess so

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Perhaps it's that millions of people are capable of laughing at the situation and not turning it into a national crisis.

You weren't "laughing at the situation" with Bush, you were making sexist comments that at least he could have picked a better looking woman and talking about happy endings. So I assume you think sexual harassment is a laughing matter, judging from your comments and other posts I have read of yours. Newsflash-it isn't, and it IS a national crisis. Sexism from men isn't funny and isn't fun to deal with. And reading the thread, I'm not the only one who feels that way and "surprise surprise", even some men here expressed their disgust at the sexist comments in this thread.

 

[maude]

As a woman, I do not understand the sexist accusations being bandied about. I consider Bush's actions inappropriate, certainly a faux-pas, but some of you are REALLY blowing this completely out of proportion. It's just ridiculous.