President gives unwelcome massage to Chancellor of Germany

[BVS]

Threads like this don't allow for discussion. Ask a question, it is ignored.

I'd ask the simple question - what is the point of the thread? To discuss whether the action is appropriate (as has this been confirmed - didn't we see a faked tape of the Italian Prime Minister "goose" a parking cop?)? Or to say how wrong Bush is and ridicule anyone who posts differently?

Yes, it's real. And yes there has been discussion but many have decided to look past that. I answered your questions, and you ignored mine...

This thread has reminded me of one thing, conservatives still think sexism is a figment of the liberal's imagination...

 

[joyfulgirl]

If the roles were reversed, and the Chancellor did this to Bush, can you even imagine what would be said about her? For those who don't understand why Bush's behavior was inappropriate, please just imagine the roles reversed and what the response might be. Or imagine any female executive you know doing this to a male executive (it's actually pretty hard for me to imagine since it basically would not happen).

 

[nbcrusader]

Your question:

Does it matter?

Was your “answer” to my question:

How long was he "massaging" her?

Which was prompted by your comment:

They may touch them on the shoulders as a polite way to say hi, as one approaches from behind, but they don't stay and massage them.

(I underlined the key word there).

Sorry I had to recreate the attempt at discussion.

So, I’ll answer “Yes” considering you appear to place a time factor on the appropriateness of the incident.

So instead of resorting to cheap “figments of imagination” comments, do you want to go back and discuss the issue?

 

[nbcrusader]

If the roles were reversed, and the Chancellor did this to Bush, can you even imagine what would be said about her? For those who don't understand why Bush's behavior was inappropriate, please just imagine the roles reversed and what the response might be. Or imagine any female executive you know doing this to a male executive (it's actually pretty hard for me to imagine since it basically would not happen).

Are we suppose to guess negative comments, positive comments, or that it would be a total non-issue?

 

[BVS]

Was your “answer” to my question:

I later answered your question.

Sorry I had to recreate the attempt at discussion.

Wow, that was a creative recreation.

You don't seem to get it. The length of the massage doesn't matter. I ask that you look at the photos once again and show me what is appropriate about what he did.

 

[nathan1977]

Again, on management retreats, where there is a high amount of stress, it's not uncommon for people to give each other a quick shoulder massage. It has nothing to do with harassment, and actually stems from a sense of attempted camaraderie. I've had women give me a quick massage, same as guys. It's not a big deal.

Merkel clearly didn't want it, and communicated it as such. If Merkel had shrugged him off and Bush had continued, then it would have been harassment. But a one second (literally -- watch the video) massage hardly counts as groping, harassment, or even inappropriate, especially considering the weighty issues being discussed at the G8.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Are we suppose to guess negative comments, positive comments, or that it would be a total non-issue?

I don't know, but I bet there would be no sexist "jokes" made about it by the women who post in FYM. That is the most disgusting and disheartening aspect of this whole thread for me. At least there are men here who will point out how offensive those posts are and who always take a stand against sexism, and I appreciate them and the fact that they do that. They don't care about the crap they take for doing that either, they do it anyway.

I think joyfulgirl makes an excellent point

 

[nbcrusader]

You don't seem to get it. The length of the massage doesn't matter. I ask that you look at the photos once again and show me what is appropriate about what he did.

Your own comment suggested differently. From your comments, the difference between "touching" the shoulders (which appears to be OK?) and staying and "massaging" the shoulders (which appears to be somewhere between inappropriate and criminal) depends on length of time.


Besides, I just went back again and did not see your response to the question.

 

[nbcrusader]

I don't know, but I bet there would be no sexist "jokes" made about it by the women who post in FYM. That is the most disgusting and disheartening aspect of this whole thread for me. At least there are men here who will point out how offensive those posts are and who always take a stand against sexism, and I appreciate them and the fact that they do that. They don't care about the crap they take for doing that either, they do it anyway.

I think joyfulgirl makes an excellent point

Perhaps you would get sexist, smart ass responses from some people. Frankly, while I am not a "touchy" persons (those who touch while talking face to face), if the roles were reversed - the incident would be a non-issue at a minimum, and I would appreciate world leaders connecting at a personal level.

 

[BVS]

Again, on management retreats, where there is a high amount of stress, it's not uncommon for people to give each other a quick shoulder massage. It has nothing to do with harassment, and actually stems from a sense of attempted camaraderie. I've had women give me a quick massage, same as guys. It's not a big deal.

Merkel clearly didn't want it, and communicated it as such. If Merkel had shrugged him off and Bush had continued, then it would have been harassment. But a one second (literally -- watch the video) massage hardly counts as groping, harassment, or even inappropriate, especially considering the weighty issues being discussed at the G8.

Are these massages that you give each other consentual? You keep missing this point...

 

[anitram]

I don't know, but I bet there would be no sexist "jokes" made about it by the women who post in FYM. That is the most disgusting and disheartening aspect of this whole thread for me. At least there are men here who will point out how offensive those posts are and who always take a stand against sexism, and I appreciate them and the fact that they do that. They don't care about the crap they take for doing that either, they do it anyway.

Exactly!

Men have no idea what it's like to be a woman in this world anymore than a white person knows what it's like to be black or a straight person knows what it's like to be gay. Yet you have at least one man here suggesting that the woman in question should be HAPPY she has a man touching her given she looks like such a "hag." It's a disgusting comment and not funny in the slightest.

Bush is inappropriate in a hundred different ways but it's not his behaviour in that short clip that is the worst thing on this thread.

 

[BVS]

Your own comment suggested differently. From your comments, the difference between "touching" the shoulders (which appears to be OK?) and staying and "massaging" the shoulders (which appears to be somewhere between inappropriate and criminal) depends on length of time.

No it depends on intent. One is an acknolegement the other is a MASSAGE. One involves one simple hand movement, the other involves more than one and more complex hand movements.

Besides, I just went back again and did not see your response to the question.

Can a massage be non-sexual or hostile? Yes.

 

[nbcrusader]

If this is based on intent, where are you getting Bush's intent???

 

[BVS]

If this is based on intent, where are you getting Bush's intent???

You can see from the pictures he went beyond "hello".

 

[diamond]

Bush used errant judgement on his part in this situation.
Altho innocent in his motives this was a faux pau on his part.

dbs

 

[nbcrusader]

His intent was to go beyond "hello"?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Bush used errant judgement on his part in this situation.
Altho innocent in his motives this was a faux pau on his part.

dbs

That sums it all up.

The sexual harrassment angle is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[BVS]

Bush used errant judgement on his part in this situation.
Altho innocent in his motives this was a faux pau on his part.

dbs

Actually Diamond, I'm suprised by your response. This shows growth.

But I will say the "innocent motive" is what I find most interesting. Because in a way I think you're right, yet this is the core of the issue.

Like many who have defended him, they found the act to be an innocent guesture. Yet obviously it was a crossing of boundaries. I honestly think Bush just doesn't know any better, but that isn't an excuse. The lack of these boundaries is sexist.

But just like any "ism" the thought or the act is "innocent" in the beholders mind.

 

[nbcrusader]

I thought it you said it depends on intent.

But you are also suggesting there is a clear line, one that was crossed, and that failure to see that line (before, during or after the act?) is an example of sexism.

 

[BVS]

His intent was to go beyond "hello"?

I was keeping it in context with your example of politicians touching each on the shoulders. I really don't think I have to explain myself.

 

[diamond]

But just like any "ism" the thought or the act is "innocent" in the beholders mind.

but there should be.
she coulda handled it differently as well perhaps pulling Bush aside and addressing the situation privately.

dbs

 

[BVS]

I thought it you said it depends on intent.

But you are also suggesting there is a clear line, one that was crossed, and that failure to see that line (before, during or after the act?) is an example of sexism.

Yes, but as "innocent" as the intent is, it's still wrong. Does a racist neccesarily know using a slur is wrong?

It doesn't clear them of any wrong doing, but it's something that needs to be unlearned.

 

[Westport]

We're all making grand judgements from these still photos??


1. The only person that would know whether or not it was inappropriate is Merkel. We have no idea whether Merkel wanted it or not. We don't know what her reaction was. Judging from still photos is absolute nonsense. If she came out and said something to you as a friend or in public we could judge this. Do we know what they're relationship is? Do you know whether she hugs him all the time? Maybe she is very demonstrative and this one time she's returning some affection to her. We don't know. Maybe she called him over for a massage. Maybe not.

2. The photo where she raises her arms could be saying, "Hey massage my arms." She might be stretching. We were not there. We don't know. The way the photos are placed it would LEAD you to think that she reacted a certain way. We really don't know.

3. Once again, these are still photos. We don't know what order they were taken in. This is could very easily be selective editing and manipulated to look worse than it was. I worked in the communications and media business for a decade. This is very easy to do. Maybe there was a photo afterwards where she punched him. Or maybe there was a photo or a moment before or afterwards where she came up to him and gave him a hug. For all we know they're lovers. Most likely not but once again, we don't know.

4. We weren't there. We are in no position to make judgements on what really went on by looking at selected photos. If this had been a fight on the street and the photographer had shot the just the REACTION to someone gettng punched in the stomach and it was a bunch of photos of a guy beating the crap out of someone else....we wouldn't be getting the story of what happened. We don't know the before or afterwards.

5. We might have a better idea if it were videotape but it's not.

 

[BVS]

but there should be.

But there should be what?

she coulda handled it differently as well perhaps pulling Bush aside and addressing the situation privately.

Hell no. Who knows how long he would have stayed there if she didn't react...

 

[joyfulgirl]

Here's John Stewart's hilarious bit on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE3QDQI4NBo&search=chancellor

Would everyone please stop talking about the photos and watch the damn film clip I posted on page 1. On the same youtube page there are 5 second film clips of just the moment if you don't want to watch the Daily Show bit.

 

[80sU2isBest]

We're all making grand judgements from these still photos??


1. The only person that would know whether or not it was inappropriate is Merkel. We have no idea whether Merkel wanted it or not. We don't know what her reaction was. Judging from still photos is absolute nonsense. If she came out and said something to you as a friend or in public we could judge this. Do we know what they're relationship is? Do you know whether she hugs him all the time? Maybe she is very demonstrative and this one time she's returning some affection to her. We don't know. Maybe she called him over for a massage. Maybe not.

2. The photo where she raises her arms could be saying, "Hey massage my arms." She might be stretching. We were not there. We don't know. The way the photos are placed it would LEAD you to think that she reacted a certain way. We really don't know.

3. Once again, these are still photos. We don't know what order they were taken in. This is could very easily be selective editing and manipulated to look worse than it was. I worked in the communications and media business for a decade. This is very easy to do. Maybe there was a photo afterwards where she punched him. Or maybe there was a photo or a moment before or afterwards where she came up to him and gave him a hug. For all we know they're lovers. Most likely not but once again, we don't know.

4. We weren't there. We are in no position to make judgements on what really went on by looking at selected photos. If this had been a fight on the street and the photographer had shot the just the REACTION to someone gettng punched in the stomach and it was a bunch of photos of a guy beating the crap out of someone else....we wouldn't be getting the story of what happened. We don't know the before or afterwards.

5. We might have a better idea if it were videotape but it's not.

Exactly. Like a songs says, "Though cameras never lie, the edits often do".

 

[Westport]

But there should be what?



Hell no. Who knows how long he would have stayed there if she didn't react...

How do you know what her reaction was?

 

[nbcrusader]

Yes, but as "innocent" as the intent is, it's still wrong. Does a racist neccesarily know using a slur is wrong?

It doesn't clear them of any wrong doing, but it's something that needs to be unlearned.

Interesting viewpoint. A person may not know that a word is considered a slur. What makes the person a racist in your question? The fact they used the slur? Or is the person a racist already, and somehow doesn't know that a word is offensive?

I'm asking these questions because I think we need to be more careful before we start applying such labels.

 

[BVS]

We're all making grand judgements from these still photos??


1. The only person that would know whether or not it was inappropriate is Merkel. We have no idea whether Merkel wanted it or not. We don't know what her reaction was. Judging from still photos is absolute nonsense. If she came out and said something to you as a friend or in public we could judge this. Do we know what they're relationship is? Do you know whether she hugs him all the time? Maybe she is very demonstrative and this one time she's returning some affection to her. We don't know. Maybe she called him over for a massage. Maybe not.

2. The photo where she raises her arms could be saying, "Hey massage my arms." She might be stretching. We were not there. We don't know. The way the photos are placed it would LEAD you to think that she reacted a certain way. We really don't know.

You can't be serious.

There is video, just google it.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I posted the link!!