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Old 07-21-2006, 10:00 PM   #181
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You weren't "laughing at the situation" with Bush, you were making sexist comments that at least he could have picked a better looking woman and talking about happy endings. So I assume you think sexual harassment is a laughing matter, judging from your comments and other posts I have read of yours. Newsflash-it isn't, and it IS a national crisis. Sexism from men isn't funny and isn't fun to deal with. And reading the thread, I'm not the only one who feels that way and "surprise surprise", even some men here expressed their disgust at the sexist comments in this thread.
I don't think sexual harassment is funny, I think situations like this are funny - but that's the problem anyone can view action or works as sexual harassment - much like some people may label me me as a sexist pig based on what I've said. I don't sexually harass women, but if you saw my interactions with some of my coworkers, including females, you would probably cringe at the type of stuff we talk about at work - but it's all good with us. I choose to laugh at other people cringe at, it's just me. So I guess I'm just an asshole.
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:05 PM   #182
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It's clear that Merkel didn't appreciate this. Bush pulled yet another screw-up.
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:45 PM   #183
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I make mistake all the time, but I'm not going to "mistakingly" throw out a slur because I don't think that way. I'm not going to mistakingly make a woman uncomfortable or demeaned because I don't think that way...
I disagree... in my part of hte US people still call those of east Asian descent "oriental", though I would absolutely say they're not racist... but that might be for another thread.

I think ignorance defense doesn't work for Bush, though. It's part of his job to know how his actions are going to be interpreted, and in my experience most women interpret such a gesture as paternalistic - totally inappropriate in this situation.
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Old 07-22-2006, 12:31 AM   #184
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Originally posted by Kristie


I disagree... in my part of hte US people still call those of east Asian descent "oriental", though I would absolutely say they're not racist... but that might be for another thread.

So wouldn't you define this as ignorance? So are you only a racist if you know better?

Yeah, I'll admit the lines are gray sometimes. But as human beings, don't we have a responsibilty to educate ourselves about other human beings?

It may be harsh but ignorance isn't an excuse it's a disease.

And we are all ignorant of some subject matter, I'm not trying to claim any superiority. But if I move to or visit some area of the world where I don't know anything about the culture or the people, I will try my hardest to educate myself.
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Old 07-22-2006, 12:54 AM   #185
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So wouldn't you define this as ignorance? So are you only a racist if you know better?

Yeah, I'll admit the lines are gray sometimes. But as human beings, don't we have a responsibilty to educate ourselves about other human beings?

It may be harsh but ignorance isn't an excuse it's a disease.

And we are all ignorant of some subject matter, I'm not trying to claim any superiority. But if I move to or visit some area of the world where I don't know anything about the culture or the people, I will try my hardest to educate myself.
it's hard to educate yourself if you don't realize you need education in the first place... but as I said, that's for another thread.
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Old 07-22-2006, 01:12 AM   #186
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Originally posted by Kristie


it's hard to educate yourself if you don't realize you need education in the first place... but as I said, that's for another thread.
The concept of educating yourself should be obvious to us all. For we are all different. As a man, I try and figure out women(and this is a lifetime quest )because they are part of my everyday life. They're in my schools, work, social life, etc. So are people of other races, religions, sexualities, etc...

It's all about empathy, something this world lacks...
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:36 AM   #187
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


The concept of educating yourself should be obvious to us all. For we are all different. As a man, I try and figure out women(and this is a lifetime quest )because they are part of my everyday life. They're in my schools, work, social life, etc. So are people of other races, religions, sexualities, etc...

It's all about empathy, something this world lacks...
since you insist...

I've never tried to find out if there is a more PC term for a brunette. Everyone calls them brunettes, and a brunette has never objected to the use of the term. I have never heard anyone use it in a derogatory fashion. If "brunette" has a condescending root, I don't know about it. Sometimes they are called "people with brown hair", but the terms seem interchangable, and I am not aware of anyone having a preference.

It was exactly the same with me and "oriental" until someone (from california) ripped (a very confused) me a new one about it when I was in college. The entire point of my major is to educate people about other human beings, yet this never came up in class or in my books. I apologized and haven't used it since. Once it was brought to my attention, I did research on it and learned why it was objectionable.

Was I a racist up until that point? I (and all my friends from the same state, I asked them all) were unaware that there were any other non-derogatory synonyms.
I had no more reason to educate myself on it than I do to find out a better word for brunette. It was like questioning why we call the sky "blue". You ask why it is blue, but that discussion usually doesn't involve why we call that particular color "blue". In this case it might be unfortunate, but I don't think it makes thousands of people racist.

If I had learned why people object to its use, and I continued to use it, then I think that would be wrong. Everyone (with the exception of one or two older people) I have discussed this with has discontinued their use of that particular word.

Now that you have been educated on my community, you can think whatever you want about us.

I'm going to go find out where the word "brunette" came from.


/thread hijack
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:55 AM   #188
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Originally posted by Kristie


since you insist...

I've never tried to find out if there is a more PC term for a brunette. Everyone calls them brunettes, and a brunette has never objected to the use of the term. I have never heard anyone use it in a derogatory fashion. If "brunette" has a condescending root, I don't know about it. Sometimes they are called "people with brown hair", but the terms seem interchangable, and I am not aware of anyone having a preference.

It was exactly the same with me and "oriental" until someone (from california) ripped (a very confused) me a new one about it when I was in college. The entire point of my major is to educate people about other human beings, yet this never came up in class or in my books. I apologized and haven't used it since. Once it was brought to my attention, I did research on it and learned why it was objectionable.

Was I a racist up until that point? I (and all my friends from the same state, I asked them all) were unaware that there were any other non-derogatory synonyms.
I had no more reason to educate myself on it than I do to find out a better word for brunette. It was like questioning why we call the sky "blue". You ask why it is blue, but that discussion usually doesn't involve why we call that particular color "blue". In this case it might be unfortunate, but I don't think it makes thousands of people racist.

If I had learned why people object to its use, and I continued to use it, then I think that would be wrong. Everyone (with the exception of one or two older people) I have discussed this with has discontinued their use of that particular word.

Now that you have been educated on my community, you can think whatever you want about us.

I'm going to go find out where the word "brunette" came from.


/thread hijack
You bring up some very interesting points. But the difference is 'oriental' is wrong factual. Whereas burnette isn't. Burnette is objective. Just like if some called me a redhead. I am a redhead. Now if they called me a fire crotch that would be something different.
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:21 AM   #189
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part of the idea is that people think "oriental" is objective - they don't realize it has a meaning beyond describing someone with a certain set of features that tend to indicate an ancestry from eastern Asia (aka, the Orient).

They don't know why it's called "the orient" or what "orient" means or who named it "the orient." It's just a name for a region, like the Midwest.

I understand your point though and I do agree that in a conservative state (I'm from Indiana, by the way) people are often relucant to change to a fault.

and just to be a pain in the ass, wikipedia says brunette means "little brown haired girl" in French. I might find the "little" part objectionable, had I brown hair. So if you say "brunette" is objective, does that make you a.. um... hairist?
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:26 AM   #190
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The Occident and the Orient are valid terms, "Oriental" is not the same as "Chink", I fail to see how "Oriental" is at all derrogatory.
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:30 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kristie


and just to be a pain in the ass, wikipedia says brunette means "little brown haired girl" in French. I might find the "little" part objectionable, had I brown hair. So if you say "brunette" is objective, does that make you a.. um... hairist?
Point taken, and this proves my point of all the gray out there. But to my knowledge so far I haven't found anyone who takes this word offensive, but you see I'm educating myself...

On a side note, I've never taken any offense but some of my redheaded friends have always taken offense to the term, 'beat you like a redheaded step child'...
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Old 07-22-2006, 06:08 AM   #192
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nbc asked several times what the point of the thread was. Since I'm the thread starter, the point of the thread was purely to elicit responses, which apparently was successful. ... and since I hadn't seen it posted here, to post what I saw as another example of the President's cluelessness.

My favorite responses to the thread have been the ones doing pretzel twisting gymnastics saying maybe she liked it.
Was there anything in that series of photos that said she was happy to be massaged by the leader of the free world? Was there anything in that body language--whether it took one second or five seconds--that indicated pleasure? This wasn't one photo which could be misinterpreted, they were a series of photos with a corresponding video. My God, even the President finally figured it out.

This woman was nonverbally shouting "No. Don't touch me!" to the rafters. I'm beginning to understand some earlier responses in different threads as to why some men can't read a woman's nonconsent. They read only what they want to read, sometimes to the point of delusion. That's troubling, both socially and intellectually.

The President's behavior wasn't earthshattering. But how some posters would actually try to make a case that she liked it, even asked for it is beyond me.

I promise, however, if we find these photos/video were somehow faked (although I can't imagine they were) or the Chancellor makes a statement that she enjoyed the massage, I will post a mea culpa here and send a letter of apology to the President.
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Old 07-22-2006, 07:59 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally posted by randhail


I don't think sexual harassment is funny, I think situations like this are funny - but that's the problem anyone can view action or works as sexual harassment - much like some people may label me me as a sexist pig based on what I've said. I don't sexually harass women, but if you saw my interactions with some of my coworkers, including females, you would probably cringe at the type of stuff we talk about at work - but it's all good with us. I choose to laugh at other people cringe at, it's just me. So I guess I'm just an asshole.
There are definitions of sexual harassment. Just because some of your co workers think you interactions are "all good" doesn't mean everyone does, or I would. Your "jokes" in this thread weren't funny at all to me and were offensive to me-"funny" you still haven't addressed that directly. They were offensive and completely unnecessary. I won't go so far as to say they make you an asshole, but in my eyes they are indicative of what a boy would say, not a man. I don't understand why you would post them at all, and I don't believe someone would intentionally portray themselves in a negative light online if that really isn't an aspect of their personality. That makes no sense to me at all.Trying to portray yourself in a better light than what you are really like-yes that I can understand.

So what was the reason for those comments? Was it attention seeking or what, what was it? Like I said, show some respect for the female posters here. I'm not going to let stuff like that slide, just like I wouldn't put up with it from boys in my everyday life. Racial slurs and "jokes" or "jokes" about homosexuals wouldn't be allowed here, so sexist "jokes" shouldn't be allowed either. It's not something I can dismiss as "being blown out of proportion". I'm tired of reading stuff like that here and keeping my mouth shut.

If the Chancellor made a statement that she enjoyed the massage and wasn't offended (something tells me she would minimize it in order to diffuse the stiuation just like so many women do) that still doesn't change the issues in this thread. My it has been illuminating
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Old 07-22-2006, 08:20 AM   #194
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I suspect that the Chancellor might diplomatically say she wasn't offended if push came to shove. However, she would have to say she enjoyed the massage to warrant my apology.
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Old 07-22-2006, 09:34 AM   #195
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This is what we get for electing a the guy who "we'd like to have a beer with" instead of the guy who knows diplomacy and culture. God willing, it will never happen again.
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