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Old 12-19-2002, 07:25 PM   #31
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Sula,

Military spending is apart of the whole international aid issue because international security, international trade, and humanitarian aid are all connected in some ways. Despite the USA's lack of funding on humanitarian aid, it needs to be emphasized what the USA does for the world in terms of international security and the beneficial effect that US consumers have on the global economy.

While many countries around the world have a cynical view of US's role in providing international security in many area's, they have or can have that view about ANYTHING the USA does on an international basis. Even providing more humanitarian aid could be cynically viewed as simply protecting USA interest. Maintaining impartial justice in a certain part of the globe could actually be very benefitial to longterm US business interest if the results of such impartial justice were stability and as a result, increased economic development attracting US businesses.

I'm not nearly as knowledgable about Indonesia as you , but obviously Kissinger did the best he could with a bad situation. Of course, if you have a superior alternative policy approach to what happened that would safeguard the region from Communist expansion and insure security and stability in the region in a better way, then I'd be interested to hear it. Its important not to think inside a box about the events in Indonesia and realize the greater context of the Cold War in which these events are taking place.

I suppose you do not like the fact that the USA supported Stalin during World War II? Suharto was a mouse compared to Stalin. Again, its important to not look at a particular event or situation inside a box, but to look at the broarder context under which these events are happening. Its unforunate what happened to the people of East Timor just as it is unfortunate that 20,000 French civilians were killed in the initial bombing for D-Day in June 1944. But if you do not think that US policy in Indonesia was simply making the best of a difficult situation in the region similar to other regions and events in history, then I'd like to hear your solution if you had been Secretary of State at the time realizing the larger context under which regional events happen.

Your criticism of US military internvention not being evenhanded seems to stem more from the fact that the USA does not involve itself in every single conflict taking place inside countries around the world. Even if that would be a desirable goal, the USA does not have the ability to do that, and must pick in choose where to use its finite military resources. Of course, if our allies would contribute more to defense, the ability of the USA to involve itself in more area's of the world could increase. It is not in the interest of the USA to have people in any region of the world be slaughtered or die of starvation, and if we had more resources and help, and could prevent these things from happening without compromising more vital and important international security objectives, we would.

Even if there are several specifically unfair practices that can be pointed out in regards to USA trade with the third world, USA consumption of nearly 2 trillion dollars of goods and services from other countries is a NET benefit to the Global economy! Several other first world countries have much higher barriers to free trade than the USA.
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Sting-
Face it we will always be considered bastards here.
Well not always, but most the time

It is kinda cool though to be a voice of reason in a sea of chaos..

God Save The Queen.

thank u-
shut up

DB9
great post, really. you outdid yourself this time.
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Old 12-20-2002, 01:53 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
While many countries around the world have a cynical view of US's role in providing international security in many area's, they have or can have that view about ANYTHING the USA does on an international basis.
have or can have?

as Sula pointed out there is some cynicism in the way US international politics are looked upon
as she also pointed out (at least I think she did) it would be even more naive to think there is no ground for this cynicism

what the US regards as international security (or at least the items they think deserve immediate action) more often than not seems to coincide with the US best interest
personally I don't see that much wrong with that
as long as you do not pretend you are looking out for the entire international community
the US does not do that
nobody does that
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Old 12-20-2002, 03:53 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

Even if there are several specifically unfair practices that can be pointed out in regards to USA trade with the third world, USA consumption of nearly 2 trillion dollars of goods and services from other countries is a NET benefit to the Global economy! Several other first world countries have much higher barriers to free trade than the USA.
Ok Sting you like to grab a point then pin it down and beat it till its mush!!!

2 trillion dollars. Well great. Just a simple question. How much of that comes from sweat shops? Children working 16 hr days? Ppl living in disgusting conditions?

Remember you would not be going to other countries to get products made if you could do it for the same price or less somewhere else. Brings me back to my point about how all these great things and how yous do so much and no-one else does anything. But remember its all in your best intrest you arent doing these things for the children of Somlia first your pocketbooks second!
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Old 12-20-2002, 10:04 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Sting-
Face it we will always be considered bastards here.
Well not always, but most the time

DB9
I'd never categorize you two as bastards,
just misguided.

Merry Christmas to you both.
See you on Jan 18th (HAHA)
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Old 12-20-2002, 10:52 AM   #36
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I actually think they are bastards .....But if bill frist gets trent lotts leadership status....I'll let the conservatives in forum slide
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Old 12-20-2002, 11:49 AM   #37
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It looks like you may indeed have to let us slide, Arun_V.
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Old 12-20-2002, 01:57 PM   #38
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Arun and I have spoke about Bill Frist for months.
Arun and I have have chatted about the old Republican mindset, which keeps a lot of open-minded ppl afraid of the G.O. P.
Arun has always liked Senator Frist alot for a Republican.
This is truly the direction and minset of present day Republicanism ,believe it or not.
Examples like -

Dr. Bill Frist
Collin Powell
Condi Rice
William Weld
Senator McCain
Kenneth Blackwell
Thomas Sowell
George Allen
Peter Kirsanow
Bertrum Schroeder
Armstrong Wiliams
Bruce Willis
Harold Doley
Liddy Dole
Kay Baiely Hutchinson
George Will
Ken Hamblin
and the majority of Republican Senators that wanted him to step down

plus many many other great leaders both Republican and Democrat that will remain unnamed..





Long story short, its a good day for America....and Bono -as Bill and Bono are friends.

Peace-
DB9
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Old 12-20-2002, 07:07 PM   #39
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Rono
u forgot to say, "Read You"

dB9
Thank you,...
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Old 12-20-2002, 07:12 PM   #40
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Old 12-20-2002, 07:14 PM   #41
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Salome,

In general I agree with certain things you recently said. Its true the USA does not look out for the entire international community in every instance, but it does do the bulk of the work in providing peace and security for several different regions of the world that are very important to European, Middle Eastern, and East Asian countries. These regions are all very important either directly or indirectly to the entire planet. So the USA's work in securing these area's can be seen as looking out for the planet.

Bonoman,

I do not know how many of the 2 Trillion dollars worth of goods and services that US consumers purchase from foreign owned companies and family businesses in foreign countries are sweat shops. Do you know how many sweat shops Canada has? US consumers buy a good chunk of stuff from Canada every year, so maybe you can tell us the Canadian companies that engage in these labor practices. If these labor practices are going, it is not the fault of US consumers like myself, but the Canadian government or any other government the allows this to occur on their own soil.

This is not about going to other countries to get products made! US consumers have every right to purchase goods and services made in a foreign country by foreign companies. There is nothing wrong if someone in my family prefers to buy a particular type of sock made by an Italian company rather than an American one. There is nothing wrong with purchasing U2 this Christmas rather than Creed. Foreign competition helps bring the price of all goods down for consumers in the USA and elsewhere. Its rather strange to suggest that US consumers like myself should not buy goods made by foreign companies if that is what we choose to do.

You can always make the claim that Anything the USA ever does for anyone else, even if it were to spend 10 times what it does on humanitarian aid, as acting in its own self interest. This line of cynicism does not end there, you could claim the only reason people are kind to others is because it benefits themselves in some way. I disagree.
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Old 12-20-2002, 07:25 PM   #42
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Re: President Bush keeping his promise on way to Africa-

Quote:
Bush Postpones Trip to Africa
By REUTERS


WASHINGTON - President Bush, preparing for a possible war with Iraq, on Friday postponed a planned trip to Africa next month, citing "domestic and international considerations."

"President Bush will reschedule his January 2003 trip to Africa until later in the year due to a combination of domestic and international considerations," the White House said in a statement.

A senior U.S. official said Bush was staying home to monitor the situation in Iraq as well as to begin work on his domestic agenda -- including outstanding spending bills -- with a new Senate majority leader.

The official said the postponement should not be taken as a step closer to war with Iraq, saying Washington remained committed to a "deliberative course" to carrying out its disarmament demands of Iraq.
Is it time to kick Bush out of the promise keepers?
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Old 12-20-2002, 07:29 PM   #43
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no, mr deep it is not..
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Old 12-20-2002, 08:17 PM   #44
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No sting i am saying that compainies like Nike and Gap that do not hide the fact they use child labour and sweat shops. There is no fighting you Sting. I give up, you are to stubborn, you dont give anyone any crdit and try to put everyones ideas that arent like your down. i dont want to fight with you anymore. Bye.
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Old 12-20-2002, 11:18 PM   #45
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Bonoman,

I'm not fighting anyone here, nor am I putting anyone down. I'm speaking out and defending my own thoughts. There is nothing wrong with people if they are not convinced by anothers thoughts or Idea's. Everyone here can agree to disagree. Free Your Mind is not a battlefield.

The fact that US companies like Nike or Gap use or have used sweatshops is a different issue from the fact that US consumers purchase nearly 2 Trillion dollars worth of goods from foreign consumers. You seemed to be combining the two as if they were the same, instead of starting a new topic. At least thats how I read it.
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