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Old 07-12-2004, 11:36 AM   #1
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President Bush and Religion

Last night on C-SPAN I caught some of the President's speech at his campaign rally in Pennsylvania.

I think Mr. Bush is a bit confused about his own religion. Speaking about Islamic terrorists, he said "They've hijacked a great religion. They're not religious people." I find it curious president Bush calls Islam a "great religion" when the most influential part of his base - conservative evangelical Christians - clearly believe that Islam is a false religion. Evangelicals send missionaries to the Middle East to convert folks to Christianity. Evangelicals believe in one God: Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior. There is no room for Allah in that equation.

In his closing remarks, Bush stated that "freedom is the almighty God's gift to each man and woman in this world."

I wonder which Almighty God he meant? Jesus, Allah or both?
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Old 07-12-2004, 11:49 AM   #2
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What do you expect? The President to speak as a theologian or a statesman?

For all the outcry that conservative evangelical Christianity controls his decisions, you clearly show how the President can act as a secular statesman.
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Old 07-12-2004, 11:58 AM   #3
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I am an atheist but pretty much all monotheistic religions originating from the ME would be speaking of essentially the same God. They are a lot of collective tales from the various nations in the area and they do overlap a bit. Bush would be alluding to the fact that they all worship one God and that it is the same god.

As for the whole Religion of Peace etc. comments, that is all politically correct speak that he is expected to spout unless he want's to spark outrage in the Islamic world (well morso, saying that America is more hated in the Muslim world after the WoT is like going from "You are the great Satan" to "You are the great Satan + 1") and at home by labelling Islam something else. The entire problem I have is with the way that the west treats the Islamic world generally, the various cultures that have arisin withing the Islamic world (North Africa through to Indonesia) are a very mixed bag and I definitely think that some strains of thought are not preaching peaceful coexistence and because these violent ideologies are tollerated it is unfair to exclued them when making generalizations about Islam. Basically its a religion stuck in the past and is no worse than Christianity was in its darker days, it needs a rennaisance rather than reform and the only way thats going to happen if the socio-economic conditions are changed and some genuine earth shattering changes happen within Saudi Arabia and some of the poorer but no less extreme centres of Islamic learning. Basically I think that the west does a lot of harm to the Muslim world when it shakes the hands of violent extremists and calls them moderates rather than condemn them, they just reinforce the negative elements of a religion (it's not bad, it's not great its just a religion) rather than encourage progress.
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Old 07-12-2004, 12:15 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

For all the outcry that conservative evangelical Christianity controls his decisions, you clearly show how the President can act as a secular statesman.
though he has (wisely) attempted to cast an inclusive net accepting of various religions, his actions and initiatives may still very well be influenced by specific groups. in some cases there is good evidence for this being so.
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Old 07-12-2004, 12:19 PM   #5
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May I inquire as to what actions. Obviously Stem Cell research and the allocation of public funding is an example as is his stance on gay marriage there are others though.
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Old 07-12-2004, 01:13 PM   #6
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"President Bush" and "Religion" The two most incendiary topics on FYM! oh boy....
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Old 07-12-2004, 10:58 PM   #7
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What do you expect? The President to speak as a theologian or a statesman?

For all the outcry that conservative evangelical Christianity controls his decisions, you clearly show how the President can act as a secular statesman.
I expect the president to be honest. If Mr. Bush were to reveal his true religious beliefs (which are aligned with those of conservative, so-called “Born Again” Christians – and it is documented that he has acknowledged that he is such a believer), I believe most people would be shocked. He would have to admit that he views the Islamic religion as a false religion and Allah as a false god. Even if in Mr.Bush’s statements (at the rally to which I referred) he was using the term “great” to mean “predominant,” he still gave the Islamic religion credence by implying that the evil of Islamic terrorists lies in the fact that they are not truly Muslim. The problem is that in the context of conservative evangelical Christianity, Mr. Bush’s statements do not fly. As a Bible-believing Christian, Mr. Bush must believe that the Islamic religion ultimately is of the devil.

I think people need to know what they are getting with this president. I believe evangelical Christians themselves, many of whom consider president Bush a “Godly Man,” are mistaken in their beliefs with respect to this president. The fruits of his invasion of Iraq, for example, are dead soldiers. More than 1000 dead men and women, blown apart by bullets and explosives, lying dead in the desert. These are not the fruits of the actions of a Christian, I think.
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Old 07-12-2004, 11:18 PM   #8
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Bush would be alluding to the fact that they all worship one God and that it is the same god.
A-Wanderer, I can assure you that if president Bush believes the same as the vast majority of the conservative Christians believe, he does not believe that Jesus and Allah are the same God.
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Old 07-12-2004, 11:19 PM   #9
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Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
"President Bush" and "Religion" The two most incendiary topics on FYM! oh boy....
Yeah, well, whaddya gonna do....
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Old 07-13-2004, 12:40 AM   #10
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Originally posted by pub crawler
I expect the president to be honest.
If he were to take a theological role, then Yes, the President would state that Islam cannot be a true religion as it is inconsistent with basic Christian tenents. I've seen no one expect the President to act in such a theological role.

How far do you want to extend the "honesty" of an elected official's religious beliefs? Does this mean that Kerry should oppose abortion?
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Old 07-13-2004, 07:31 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


If he were to take a theological role, then Yes, the President would state that Islam cannot be a true religion as it is inconsistent with basic Christian tenents. I've seen no one expect the President to act in such a theological role.

How far do you want to extend the "honesty" of an elected official's religious beliefs? Does this mean that Kerry should oppose abortion?
I'm actually with NBC on this one, he's acting as a statesman, and I'm glad he chose to do so. What do you expect him to do?

Yes he's done some questionable things with the regards of crossing the lines of church and state, but he chose not to here.
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Old 07-21-2004, 12:12 AM   #12
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


If he were to take a theological role, then Yes, the President would state that Islam cannot be a true religion as it is inconsistent with basic Christian tenents. I've seen no one expect the President to act in such a theological role.
I object to the fact that this president speaks in a sort of code to and for his conservative Christian constituents. It has been pointed out by at least a few journalists that president Bush occasionally and cleverly weaves lines from hymns in his speeches, and in the speech I quoted in my first post above (which can be found in its entirety at http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...040709-14.html), he mentioned the "almighty God" (I'd guess he's talking about the Christian God, wouldn't you?), he called the U.S. "our blessed country" and stated that "America is leading the world with confidence and moral clarity." This idea of "moral clarity" is a powerful theme being used among evangelicals (see https://ssl.capwiz.com/cmc/e4/nvra/?action=form&state= for evidence supporting my assertion). President Bush, again in the speech I quoted from above, also made some minor allusions to biblical writings (e.g., he said that "...each of us is responsible for loving our neighbor just like we'd like to be loved ourselves").

Bottom line: you say he's acting like a good statesman. I say he's playing to conservative evangelical Christians blatantly and as much as possible, because he is one of them and he is beholden to them.

Quote:
How far do you want to extend the "honesty" of an elected official's religious beliefs? Does this mean that Kerry should oppose abortion?
I'm not totally familiar with Kerry's position on abortion, but I believe - correct me if I'm wrong - that he says he doesn't support abortion personally but wouldn't stand in anyone else's way of having an abortion. To that I say this: I am sure that the abortion issue does not inform all of Kerry's other views, for example his views on foreign policy. Bush, on the other hand, has stated that he is a "Born Again" Christian, and he's obviously a conservative "Born Again"/evangelical Christian. His Christianity, if it's real, most certainly profoundly affects his life and his world view as it relates to virtually every matter of importance. That said, I really have no gripe with his personal faith, I am just annoyed and angered by the way he uses his personal faith to manipulate and be manipulated by those of the evangelical Christian persuasion.

*Edited for typo and to clarify one sentence.
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Old 07-21-2004, 01:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
What do you expect? The President to speak as a theologian or a statesman?

For all the outcry that conservative evangelical Christianity controls his decisions, you clearly show how the President can act as a secular statesman.
It's problematic when you don't believe what he's saying. Not liberals. Not conservatives. Not Muslims. Not the Middle East.

But, overall, I thought it was a sin to lie.

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Old 07-21-2004, 01:44 AM   #14
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
How far do you want to extend the "honesty" of an elected official's religious beliefs? Does this mean that Kerry should oppose abortion?
I've watched politicians treat my happiness as a political punching bag. It's clear that "secularism" is only convenient when we're wishing to stop fundamentalist Muslims from trying to kill us, but how dare we deal with our problematic fundamentalists who are hell-bent on making us the Christian version of Iran? And all they'd need to do is stack the judiciary with fundamentalist Christian judges, and we'd be them.

"Honesty" would actually be refreshing, for once, and I'll be honest in their place. I wish they'd all go fuck themselves.

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Old 07-22-2004, 02:27 AM   #15
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The evangelist who has a national and to some degree international television audience on the Christian cable channel that broadcasts 24/7:

Pastor Rod Parsley
Launches The Center For Moral Clarity

July 7, 2004 will surely go down in the annals of our Christian heritage as a defining moment for the Church.

Standing before an overflow crowd at Dominion Camp Meeting, with tens of thousands joining him through the eye of the camera and the world wide web, Pastor Rod Parsley launched The Center for Moral Clarity (CMC) and called the church to the front lines in the battle for morality in America.

There has never been a more defining moment for our nation, and Pastor Parsley has been called of God to be an agent of change to return our nation to the discarded values of the past.

CMC is a revolutionary new outreach dedicated to defending truth and shaping our culture through prayer, information and activism. With the Bible as its foundation, The Center for Moral Clarity will be a vital bridge, connecting the church to the cultural issues facing our society and will equip you with a wide range of tools to help you make an impact in your community.

It is time for the church to arise, take its rightful position and defend all that is right in America against all that is wrong.

Alone you are only a voice; but together, we are a force!

https://www.centerformoralclarity.net/CMCUpdates.aspx




The President of the United States on July 9, 2004:

"America is leading the world with confidence and moral clarity"
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...040709-14.html
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