President Bush and Religion - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-22-2004, 04:45 AM   #16
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 11:41 PM
"Moral clarity means never having to say sorry."

Someone stick that on a tshirt - I'd wear it!
__________________

__________________
Kieran McConville is online now  
Old 07-22-2004, 01:39 PM   #17
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 760
Local Time: 01:41 PM
There was a good article in the Village Voice in May, that touched on this (i.e. what is GW believing when he acknowledges other religions?). The "Lincoln" in the following is a professor of theology at Univ. of Chicago:

"Lincoln points out an especially cunning aspect of the post–9-11 incarnation of Christian militancy: that Bush's invocation of Islam as a "religion of peace," a great religion hijacked by the terrorists, need not contradict the specifically Christian aspects of this vision. Some Christians, Lincoln observes, "would maintain that Christianity is not a religion. The others"—Islam, Shinto, whatever—"are religions." Christianity, simply, is reality: the truth. Bush can praise Islam to the skies, but it needn't take away from the Christian right's sense that Bush knows it's really Christ who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

The whole article here:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0418/perlstein.php
__________________

__________________
Judah is offline  
Old 07-22-2004, 02:37 PM   #18
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:41 AM
This is essentially correct for everyone, not just "Christian militancy" as the author so kindly states.

Everyone here has a belief. If they think there belief is true, to the exclusion of all others, that doesn't make the others any less of a religion.

Rick Perlstein simply exposes his own bigotry when pointing out this truth.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-22-2004, 02:50 PM   #19
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 09:41 AM
I don't know that Perlstein is bigoted. Most of the evidence he presents for Bush's mindset is pretty old and easily researched on the 'Net. Bush's connections to the Reconstructionist movement, for example, certainly are a bit frightening, though it's nice to know that they do stop at stonings.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 07-22-2004, 03:26 PM   #20
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:41 AM
The principle of the quoted statement can be applied to everyone. Why Christianity gets the "militancy" label is not a fine example of objective reporting, but an example bias (perhaps playing to a choir that enjoys such labels).
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-22-2004, 03:35 PM   #21
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 09:41 AM
The problem is that, in some cases (certainly not all or even a majority, but some), I'm not sure the label is inappropriate. I read in the Intelligence Report (a publication of the well-reputed Southern Poverty Law Center) that some of the very extreme right-wingers are not only extraordinarily intractable and intolerant in their beliefs, but do not shy away from violence and extreme grabs for power. And they do believe that they alone are correct--not only in their belief in Jesus Christ as Savior, but in many other beliefs as well--and will stop at nothing to prove that they are right.

So how are such people not militants, Christian or not? Particularly when the "militant" label is even more casually tossed around on the other side of the fence, to libel feminists, gay rights activists, African-American leaders, and the like.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 07-22-2004, 04:27 PM   #22
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:41 AM
I am sure you can find "militants" for every group or cause. I would say Perlstein has casually tossed the term in this article when speaking of Bush.

Do you think this was a thoughtful and supported use of the term when refering to Bush?
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-22-2004, 10:29 PM   #23
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 09:41 AM
To describe Bush himself? Possibly not.

To describe some fabulously wealthy people who have given him lots of money? Absolutely, and it's the financial connections that worry me.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 07-22-2004, 10:55 PM   #24
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
To describe some fabulously wealthy people who have given him lots of money? Absolutely, and it's the financial connections that worry me.
Bush's financial support is from Christian militants???
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-23-2004, 04:48 AM   #25
New Yorker
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Posts: 2,551
Local Time: 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Judah

Some Christians, Lincoln observes, "would maintain that Christianity is not a religion. The others"—Islam, Shinto, whatever—"are religions." Christianity, simply, is reality: the truth. Bush can praise Islam to the skies, but it needn't take away from the Christian right's sense that Bush knows it's really Christ who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Actually that makes a lot of sense. For evangelicals, there is that belief that Christianity is not a religion, but a faith -- and that makes all the difference in the world.

The really important point to be made about all of this is that American Conservatism as it is currently dictated by the right wing gives very black and white answers to all of the country's ills. Everything can be figured out if one listens to those who speak with Moral Clarity. George W. Bush claims that his leadership provides us with Moral Clarity.

Unfortunately, Americans are generally in a deep slumber and have no idea what this administration is up to -- and don't give a fuck in general. The electorate simply listens to the president and trusts that he is doing the right thing.
__________________
pub crawler is offline  
Old 07-23-2004, 08:55 AM   #26
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 09:41 AM
Um, yes--the Reconstructionist movement was very generous to Bush's campaign.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 07-23-2004, 09:38 AM   #27
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 09:41 AM
Let me note that while the Reconstructionist movement, from my quick readings, is largely theonomic and theocratic, not all Reconstructionists promote violence.

That said, here are some links to info about Christian Reconstruction and George W. Bush, and connections between them:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm

All religious organizations, congregations etc. other than Christian would be suppressed. Nonconforming Evangelical, main line and liberal Christian religious institutions would no longer be allowed to hold services, organize, proselytize, etc. Society would revert to the laws and punishments of the Hebrew Scriptures. Any person who advocated or practiced other religious beliefs outside of their home would be tried for idolatry and executed. Blasphemy, adultery and homosexual behavior would be criminalized; those found guilty would also be executed. At that time that this essay was originally written, this was the only religious movement in North America of which we were aware which advocates genocide for followers of minority religions and non-conforming members of their own religion. Since then, we have learned of two conservative Christian pastors in Texas who have advocated the execution of all Wiccans. Ralph Reed, the executive director of the conservative public policy group the Christian Coalition has criticized Reconstructionism as "an authoritarian ideology that threatens the most basic civil liberties of a free and democratic society."

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00147.htm

...the origins of America's largest electronic voting machine companies may be just as distressing [as connections between Sen. Chuck Hagel and a similar company; see full story], especially for those who venerate the separation of church and state. The convoluted system of renaming and buyouts of America's voting system companies is a complicated story. However, once the various corporate trails have been followed, a disturbing picture comes into focus.

Brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich founded American Information Systems. Bob is currently president of Diebold and Todd Urosevich is Vice President, Aftermarket Sales of ES&S. (In 1999, American Information Systems, purchased Business Records Corp to become ES&S.)

American Information Systems (AIS) was primarily funded with money from Ahmanson brothers, William and Robert, of the Howard F. Ahmanson Co. The majority stake in ES&S is still owned by Howard F. Ahmanson and the Ahmanson Foundation

Howard Ahmanson belongs to Council for National Policy, a hard right wing organization and also helps finance The Chalcedon Institute. As the institute's own site reports, Chalcedon is a "Christian educational organization devoted to research, publishing, and promoting Christian reconstruction in all areas of life... Our emphasis on the Cultural or Dominion Mandate (Genesis 1:28) and the necessity of a return to Biblical Law has been a crucial factor in the challenge to Humanism by Christians in this country and elsewhere..." Chalcedon promotes Christian Reconstructionism, which mandates Christ's dominion over the entire world. The organization's purpose is to establish Old Testament Biblical law as the standard for society.


http://religiousmovements.lib.virgin...s/ChRecon.html

(A very scholarly look at Christian Reconstructionism.)

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intel...le.jsp?aid=376

(The original story I read about Christian Reconstruction in the Southern Poverty Law Center's Inteligence Report.)
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 07-23-2004, 09:47 AM   #28
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 09:41 AM
And one more--this one deals more explicitly with Christian Reconstruction's ties to major Republican figures, including, very closely, George W. Bush himself. Watch the stupid little commercial if you have to and read the whole article.

http://archive.salon.com/news/featur...son/index.html

The Episcopal Church split is only a small part of Ahmanson's concerted efforts to radically transform not only American religion, but the nation's moral culture and, thereby, the country itself. His money has made possible some of the most pivotal conservative movements in America's recent history, including the 1994 GOP takeover of the California Assembly, a ban on gay marriage and affirmative action in California, and the mounting nationwide campaign to prove Darwin wrong about evolution. His financial influence also helped propel the recent campaign to recall California Gov. Gray Davis. And besides contributing cash to George W. Bush's 2000 presidential campaign, Ahmanson has played an important role in driving Bush's domestic agenda by financing the career of Marvin Olasky, a conservative intellectual whose ideas inspired the creation of the new White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.

Even when not explicitly violent, do I believe that these ideas are bad, bad news? Yes. Do I think that the President having ties to them is a bad, bad thing? Definitely.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 07-23-2004, 04:00 PM   #29
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
Um, yes--the Reconstructionist movement was very generous to Bush's campaign.
Pax, that is some very interesting reading. I should note that the Reconstructionist movement conflicts with teachings of "evangelicals" or "fundamentalists" in many regards.

Who are the generous donors to the Bush campaign? I did not recognize the names of those associated with Reconstructionist teaching.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 07-23-2004, 07:53 PM   #30
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville
"Moral clarity means never having to say sorry."

Someone stick that on a tshirt - I'd wear it!
of course that's wrong - there are situations in life where everything you can do is to choose between two wrongs.
Shakespeare got famous with that stuff
__________________

__________________
Klaus is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com