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Old 05-05-2005, 01:01 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


what i am saying is that matters of faith and prophecy cannot be objectively proven to be true.
But if we look at ancient copies of the OT that tell us that the Christ would be a descendent of David and that his hands and feet would be pierced, and then we look at evidence outside of the Bible that supports these claims, how can it not be objectively proven?


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i don't see the bible as any sort of credible historical textbook
What are you basing this on? Have you studied it? Also, keep in mind the writers didn't write it on their own, they had the Holy Spirit, a.k.a. God. I think God would want things recorded accurately.

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all i'm getting at, here, is that the Bible, to me, seems much like prayer -- it exists in the mind of the reader. there is no Bible unless someone reads it (words are meant to be read, if a book is never opened, it doesn't exist ...
I'm sorry, but how can you honestly believe this? It always exists, one just hasn't been exposed to it yet. The fact that someone hasn't been exposed to it certainly does not mean they have authority over it, you know? If I misunderstood you hear, I'm sorry.
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Old 05-05-2005, 01:02 PM   #77
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Christians do not own God. They just seem to think they do.
Christian's don't own God.

I can understand your perception of such if Christians hold true to the teachings of the Bible.
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Old 05-05-2005, 01:03 PM   #78
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Christians do not own God. They just seem to think they do.
Remember Martha, I didn't claim Christ was the only way —*he did.
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Old 05-05-2005, 01:37 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


But if we look at ancient copies of the OT that tell us that the Christ would be a descendent of David and that his hands and feet would be pierced, and then we look at evidence outside of the Bible that supports these claims, how can it not be objectively proven?

What are you basing this on? Have you studied it? Also, keep in mind the writers didn't write it on their own, they had the Holy Spirit, a.k.a. God. I think God would want things recorded accurately.

I'm sorry, but how can you honestly believe this? It always exists, one just hasn't been exposed to it yet. The fact that someone hasn't been exposed to it certainly does not mean they have authority over it, you know? If I misunderstood you hear, I'm sorry.


as i said i am not an expert in this, but i know people have debated at length on this topic. i think it's fairly safe to say that, no, the world wasn't created in 7 days, or that there wasn't a flood nor a Noah's Ark, etc. i also think that reading is a very subjective process, and people often set out to affirm their beliefs. but i can't have an in-depth discussion on this -- i'm simply out of my depth. but i am basing my criticisms of the Bible on my understanding of the nature of history, and the way in which people read.

i just don't buy the Holy Spirit argument. sorry, i can't accept the objectivity of a text on the presumption of an article of faith (the Holy Spirit).

you misunderstood my last point. what i'm saying, is that if i write a book, and no one reads it, it doesn't exist. obviously, people read the bible, so it exists. my point is that reading is less about words on a page and more about the interaction of a human being with words on a page. the "book," if you will, is in the interaction, not in the paper and ink.
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Old 05-05-2005, 01:50 PM   #80
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Irvine, I know you're not an expert on this stuff (neither am I!), but I did enjoy our little debate/discussion here. I hope I haven't come across to harshly, I was just trying to make some points. Sorry I misunderstood your last point as well.

Should get back to discussing prayer again?
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:11 PM   #81
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i've enjoyed this discussion very much.

you've not come off harshly at all.

happy to continue to discuss whatever.
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:17 PM   #82
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Today's the national day of prayer, do you think it's a good idea for a nation to have a day of prayer?
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:30 PM   #83
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Just one?


Heck, even the most casual Christians show up to church twice a year....
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:05 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Today's the national day of prayer, do you think it's a good idea for a nation to have a day of prayer?
Every day with a fractions test is a day of prayer.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:07 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


Remember Martha, I didn't claim Christ was the only way —*he did.
He's the only way for you.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:16 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Every day with a fractions test is a day of prayer.




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He's the only way for you.

John 14:6: "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me.' "

(no, "no one" isn't capitalized in the Bible.
)



Let's get back to prayer now though.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:21 PM   #87
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so for people who believe in the Bible, that might be true.

Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, etc., would all disagree with you.

that's what i meant earlier about objectivity predicated upon articles of faith.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:35 PM   #88
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You're right, Hindus, Jews and Buddhists disagree. That was my whole point in bringing it up in the first place! If all paths lead to God, why do they all conflict?

Since we're going in circles now (And I know I'm the one causing us to turn the corner again) lets get back to prayer, since people might see the thread title and actually want to talk about prayer.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:50 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
You're right, Hindus, Jews and Buddhists disagree. That was my whole point in bringing it up in the first place! If all paths lead to God, why do they all conflict?
This is too complicated to explain here.





Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Since we're going in circles now (And I know I'm the one causing us to turn the corner again) lets get back to prayer, since people might see the thread title and actually want to talk about prayer. [/B]

Only Christian prayer? Or does your God hear the prayers of those of us who are not Christians?
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Old 05-05-2005, 05:05 PM   #90
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You can talk about any kind of prayer you want to talk about.
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