Prayer - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-05-2005, 09:10 AM   #61
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,269
Local Time: 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
My own younger sister believes in God but she's not a Christian.
I'm the same way .

Angela
__________________

__________________
Moonlit_Angel is online now  
Old 05-05-2005, 09:45 AM   #62
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


A little more for you to consider: You've already thought of this, but let me remind you that a deep, personal, and very satisfying and meaningful relationship with God does not have to be based on Christianity at all.

At all.
I'm sorry Martha, but I have to disagree with you.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're essentially saying is that all religions, faiths, whatever, lead to the same place, right? Think about this though, if all paths lead to the same place, why do they contradict each other so much? Are you saying truth contradicts itself?
Think about it — you have Buddhism telling you there is no personal God and everyone can reach a state of being like God on their own. Then you have Islam telling you that Jesus was just a prophet and not the only way to God. Then you have Christianity telling you that there is a personal God AND the only way to him is through Jesus. Jesus himself said this according to John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Consider these verses as well: Galatians 3:26 says "You are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ."

John 1:12 says "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

John 8 42-47 says "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Think about this too, why would God allow us to choose another way to him if he sent his son to die for our sins?
__________________

__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 05-05-2005, 09:48 AM   #63
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 06:41 PM
I think it is clear that we all have different definitions of God (and for ease of discussion, I'll just use "God" in all places instead of God and god) and rely on different sources for defining God, be it sacred texts or our own intuition.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-05-2005, 10:15 AM   #64
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


I'm sorry Martha, but I have to disagree with you.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're essentially saying is that all religions, faiths, whatever, lead to the same place, right? Think about this though, if all paths lead to the same place, why do they contradict each other so much? Are you saying truth contradicts itself?
Think about it — you have Buddhism telling you there is no personal God and everyone can reach a state of being like God on their own. Then you have Islam telling you that Jesus was just a prophet and not the only way to God. Then you have Christianity telling you that there is a personal God AND the only way to him is through Jesus. Jesus himself said this according to John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Consider these verses as well: Galatians 3:26 says "You are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ."

John 1:12 says "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

John 8 42-47 says "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Think about this too, why would God allow us to choose another way to him if he sent his son to die for our sins?


i don't think it's terribly logical to use scripture to prove scripture.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-05-2005, 10:35 AM   #65
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i don't think it's terribly logical to use scripture to prove scripture.
Actually, it is a better form of analysis. Internal consistency underscores elements and limits the use of single passages to establish doctrine.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-05-2005, 10:40 AM   #66
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Actually, it is a better form of analysis. Internal consistency underscores elements and limits the use of single passages to establish doctrine.


so it's all about faith in a self-contained, self-referential, self-justifying system? there's no need for anything external?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-05-2005, 11:09 AM   #67
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 06:41 PM
I don't expect you to get to a scientific conclusion on matters.

With Text revealed over hundreds, if not thousands of years, history itself provides an external check showing fulfillment of prophecy.

Also, there is the Holy Spirit.

What would you suggest as the proper "external" check?
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-05-2005, 11:45 AM   #68
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I don't expect you to get to a scientific conclusion on matters.

With Text revealed over hundreds, if not thousands of years, history itself provides an external check showing fulfillment of prophecy.

Also, there is the Holy Spirit.

What would you suggest as the proper "external" check?


there isn't an external check, i don't think, and i also think the "fulfillment of prophecy" lies very much in the eyes of the beholder, in how the text is written, and how events are then retroactively grafted onto scripture.

i'm saying that Faith is a personal thing, as is interpretation of scripture, and this reasserts, to my mind, one of the fundamental claims of postmodern literary theory -- there are no correct readings, only valid ones, and they all exist in contention with one another.

to me, i find this liberating, and as i mentioned before, perhaps a path back to God.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-05-2005, 11:46 AM   #69
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


i don't think it's terribly logical to use scripture to prove scripture.
I wasn't attempting to use scripture to prove scripture, I was using it to make a point that the Bible is clear that Christ is the only way. This sets it apart from all other religions.

nb, you make some great points.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 05-05-2005, 12:10 PM   #70
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



there isn't an external check, i don't think, and i also think the "fulfillment of prophecy" lies very much in the eyes of the beholder, in how the text is written, and how events are then retroactively grafted onto scripture.
So what you're basically saying is that the writers of the NT all lied about Jesus? There's a problem with that assumption — how do you account for the writers' teaching about truth, love, honesty, giving, etc. being based on lies? Why would they suffer hardships like beatings, starvation, shipwreck, imprisonment and execution for a bunch of lies? That doesn't make much sense and it raises more questions than it answers.

Also, how do you account for these two fulfilled prophecies surrounding his birth and death that are recorded outside of the Bible that the writers couldn't have just "written in."

Born as a descendant of David, Jeremiah 23:5; Luke 3:31

Hands and feet pierced, Psalm 22:16; John 20:24-28
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 05-05-2005, 12:20 PM   #71
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


So what you're basically saying is that the writers of the NT all lied about Jesus? There's a problem with that assumption — how do you account for the writers' teaching about truth, love, honesty, giving, etc. being based on lies? Why would they suffer hardships like beatings, starvation, shipwreck, imprisonment and execution for a bunch of lies? That doesn't make much sense and it raises more questions than it answers.

Also, how do you account for these two fulfilled prophecies surrounding his birth and death that are recorded outside of the Bible that the writers couldn't have just "written in."

Born as a descendant of David, Jeremiah 23:5; Luke 3:31

Hands and feet pierced, Psalm 22:16; John 20:24-28


no, that's not what i'm saying. what i am saying is that matters of faith and prophecy cannot be objectively proven to be true. all those teachings are based upon a version of events, and we all know human beings are flawed recorders of history. anyone who studies history seriously will tell you how flawed it is. i don't see the bible as any sort of credible historical textbook, and i know you've said things to the effect of "nothing in the bible has been disproved" -- but i think the burden of proof is on the author, not on the reader.

all i'm getting at, here, is that the Bible, to me, seems much like prayer -- it exists in the mind of the reader. there is no Bible unless someone reads it (words are meant to be read, if a book is never opened, it doesn't exist ... as is true with all articles of mass consumptiopn), and whenever we read anything we bring our own biases and prejudices to the text.

i'm not out to prove anything right or wrong, but more to assert that there isn't a right or wrong. there are valid readings, and invalid readings -- a valid reading is something i think NBC does all the time, as his arguments are very well supported by text, are logical, etc. however, to me, they operate solely within a particular system of thought, logic, and fact, and this system (the Bible) is simply not objective. that's not to say right or wrong, but simply to say that no one reading is "correct."

i'm not an expert on this topic, so i can't pretend to debate specifics with you. (calling Melon...) what i am doing is applying my knowledge of literary theory, and how we read, and applying that to the Bible, since it is a text.

it's times like these that i wish i had taken "the historical Jesus" class in college.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-05-2005, 12:21 PM   #72
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


I wasn't attempting to use scripture to prove scripture, I was using it to make a point that the Bible is clear that Christ is the only way. This sets it apart from all other religions.

nb, you make some great points.

yes, that's what the bible thinks. i understood your post as you saying that there was only one true religion, because the bible says so. well, that's fine, if you believe in the Bible, but not everyone does, and as such, your assertion (as i understood it) can only be proved with words from its own text.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-05-2005, 12:38 PM   #73
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
to me, i find this liberating, and as i mentioned before, perhaps a path back to God.
I hope we can share many more discussions together
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-05-2005, 12:53 PM   #74
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,335
Local Time: 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen

Think about this too, why would God allow us to choose another way to him if he sent his son to die for our sins?


Christians do not own God. They just seem to think they do.
__________________
martha is offline  
Old 05-05-2005, 12:59 PM   #75
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha




Christians do not own God. They just seem to think they do.
I don't think this is really true, Martha. I identify as Christian but I believe, and I suspect that many other Christians do as well, that God is available to whoever wants a relationship with God. To me, that includes everyone--Christian, non-Christian, whatever.

I don't know how people who are not Christian come to God. But I really do believe that God works through and for people who do not necessarily identify as Christian--the same God in whom I believe. How does that work? I have no idea. But that's for God to determine, not me.
__________________

__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com