Poverty Does NOT Breed Terrorism - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

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Old 11-09-2004, 11:24 AM   #31
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To me it's more like the Middle East, and more specifically Saudi Arabia, is the *birthplace* of Al Qaeda. Now AQ has cells in countries all over the world, including many European countries (look at the tragedy of Madrid). Another source of trouble is the Deobandi school of Islam, which originated in India and can accurately be referred to as the "precursor" of the Taliban as they particularly emphasize the "importance" of keeping women veiled and locked up in their homes. The Taliban can trace their development back to this particular brand of Islam. It's spread into neighboring countries. Before India and Pakistan split, Afghanistan actually had a border with India. So you could throw India into the equation if you ask me, because who gave AQ a shelter to grow and breed terrorism? The Taliban, of course.
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:52 AM   #32
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I don't believe it's 'envy' at all because they don't want what we have, they don't want to be like us. They hate everything we stand for and want to destroy us. So hate, yes, envy, no way.

i think it's wrong to say they hate us for what we stand for. this plays into the GOP bullshit that terrorists "hate freedom" and other nonsense. they don't hate freedom. they hate specific american policies (whether justified or not), and they hate what is seen as the stagnation of their societies and inability to modernize unlike the rest of the world.

one of the things that people forget about the Arab world was that it was once a superpower. these were once the most advanced societies on earth. Cairo? Baghdad? Casablanca? Damascus? all amazing cities with milennia of human achievement. these days, not so much. i'm going to mangle this quote, but there's a statistic that if you combine the GDP of what we call "the muslim world" it is still less than the GDP of Spain. that's shocking.

they hate the fact that Americans (and the West) are, essentially, winners. and then strands of islam and certain clerics take isolated Koran teachings in order to condemn Western culture and it's values: permissiveness, promiscuity, secularism, etc. (this is also, incidentally, where radical islam and evangelical christianity have much in common. they see American/Western popular culture as something insidious and to be resisted.)

i guess what i'm saying is that it's a mixture of the two: hate, and envy. i think most people who aren't American, or even aren't Western, view popular culture with equal parts love and hate. there's a freedom, a joy, and embracing of pleasure that is exhilerating. there's also a hedonism and cheapness and crassness that rubs the wrong way for many.

it's a complicated thing, which is why it drives me mad when GWB says things like "terrorists hate our freedom."
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:59 AM   #33
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I'm not saying they hate freedom, they hate the western, secular, materialistic society.

It's a very arrogant, materialistic, even jingoistic attitude to assume that they hate us because they want what we have. A lot of people are really believing if they had malls, skyscrapers, yuppies, big screen plasma TVs, and a minivan and a Mercedes in the driveway they'd be happy and not hate us. No, that's what we're about, that's not what they want. That's why they hate us, they don't want to be like us!

As I said before, if they resented our money, or hated us for being rich, why do they not hate Osama, and the Saudi royal family? They do not want money, they want to destroy our culture because they believe it's a bad thing.

A_Wanderer, where are you when I need you?
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:04 PM   #34
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
I'm not saying they hate freedom, they hate the western, secular, materialistic society.

As I said before, if they resented our money, or hated us for being rich, why do they not hate Osama, and the Saudi royal family? They do not want money, they want to destroy our culture because they believe it's a bad thing.

A_Wanderer, where are you when I need you?

oh, but they do hate the Saudi royal family. and they hate us for supporting them.
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:05 PM   #35
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I think the Saudi royals hate Osama too, didn't they ban him from the country?

Still you don't see them blowing up targets in Saudi Arabia (unless it's American)
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:17 PM   #36
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OMG, Osama despises the Saudi royal family. If he had his way they'd be out of power. There's some tension in Saudi Arabia over the status of the royal family. Some Saudis, frustrated by high unemployment and other problems, and resentful of the jet-set lifestyles of the royals, want to kick them out. Each member of the Saudi royal family keeps a good-sized cache of cash in a convenient location. This is in case they get overthrown; they plan to bribe officials to get them the hell out of the country. You don't live in a Middle Eastern monarchy without the realization you could be out on your ass next week.
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:19 PM   #37
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
I think the Saudi royals hate Osama too, didn't they ban him from the country?

Still you don't see them blowing up targets in Saudi Arabia (unless it's American)

are you kidding? in May of this year terrorists attacked the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar.

one of OBL's biggest complaints against the US was the presence of US troops in a country that contained 2 of Islam's 3 holiest sites, i believe. the reson the US was allowed to keep a military presence in Saudi Arabia was because of the close ties between the White House and the Saudis, particularly after the 1991 Gulf War. while i didn't suppor the Iraq invasion, one of the considerations that went into the invasion was the thought that a secure Saudi Arabia -- where Saddam posed no threat from the north ... there are many ways to read his invasion of Kuwait in 1991, one way to read it was the beginning of an invasion/pan-Arab uprising to destroy Israel, and he needed to control Saudi Arabia and their oil to do so ... thus, the invasion and occupation of Iraq combined with the end of the Hussein regime was a way to be able to begin to get American troops out of Saudi Arabia, and in a sense check one item off of Osama's laundry list of complaints.

also, i don't think you're wrong, i'm just adding more thoughts to your posts. so i'm agreeing with you, i guess.
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:19 PM   #38
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Originally posted by verte76
Each member of the Saudi royal family keeps a good-sized cache of cash in a convenient location. This is in case they get overthrown; they plan to bribe officials to get them the hell out of the country.
Too bad the Tsar of Russia didn't think of that

Didn't the Saudi royal family say something terrible would happen to Osama if he ever came back in the country?
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
I think the Saudi royals hate Osama too, didn't they ban him from the country?

Still you don't see them blowing up targets in Saudi Arabia (unless it's American)
Yes, conversely, the royal family hates Osama. They stripped him of his Saudi citizenship and think that if Osama's father were still alive, he'd disown him. This is very rare in the Arab world, a father disowning a son. But they think it'd happen.
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:25 PM   #40
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I understand, I'm not too fond of him either
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:30 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
thus, the invasion and occupation of Iraq combined with the end of the Hussein regime was a way to be able to begin to get American troops out of Saudi Arabia, and in a sense check one item off of Osama's laundry list of complaints.
Tattle tale, we wouldn't want the public to know about this bizarre form of appeasement now would we?
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:40 PM   #42
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The Great Depression hit America in the 1930s.
Poverty was rampant and 70% of were unemployed, did Americans all morph into terrorists?
No.
Why?
Because America is not a hateful or jealous people as a whole.

Hate, envy and jealousy breed terrorism.

Poverty can only help facilitate terrorism if one is a hateful and envious person.

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Old 11-09-2004, 12:52 PM   #43
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Diamond, they are NOT jealous of us. Jealous means you want what someone has, you want to be like them. That is not the case. They hate us and don't want to be like us.

Please read my previous posts comparing the poor of other parts of the world with terrorists. I think you'll agree.
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:54 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth


Tattle tale, we wouldn't want the public to know about this bizarre form of appeasement now would we?

shhhhhhhhhh! we just re-elected a "strong, firm" leader who stands "resolute" against terror.

don't rock the boat. go back to driving your SUVs and getting fat and buying shit you don't need at Wal-Mart. PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE WAR GOING ON!

ever think that the Bush adminstration is beginning to sound more and more like "baghdad bob" the Iraqi Information Minister?

EVERYTHING IS FINE! JUST FINE! THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO SEE HERE!
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Old 11-09-2004, 12:57 PM   #45
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
Diamond, they are NOT jealous of us. Jealous means you want what someone has, you want to be like them. That is not the case. They hate us and don't want to be like us.
When you live in an extremely legalistic environment, perhaps there is an element of jealousy to live without the "burdens" of trying to live the rules of a "righteous" life.
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