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Old 11-09-2004, 06:00 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Irvine511
you're right, it's not poverty, but it is another single word: humiliation.
Bingo! That's what all teh empircal studies I have seen in my conflict program at GMU have shown. Poverty plays a part because it allows groups like AQ to move in easily, but in and of itself, it does not "cause" terrorism.

It's important to make a distinction between poverty and relative poverty--which ties back into the humiliation/shame that Irvine mentioned.

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Old 11-09-2004, 06:11 AM   #17
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i think another factor is that the culture of terrorism breeds more terrorism. i'm sure there are many kids in eastern europe, the middle east, southeast asia, etc. that grow up thinking that terrorism is a part of everyday life. when something is seen as common, i bet it is easier to justify its use. kinda sad to think about it that way...
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Old 11-09-2004, 07:13 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling


Bingo! That's what all teh empircal studies I have seen in my conflict program at GMU have shown. Poverty plays a part because it allows groups like AQ to move in easily, but in and of itself, it does not "cause" terrorism.

It's important to make a distinction between poverty and relative poverty--which ties back into the humiliation/shame that Irvine mentioned.

SD

yes, absolutely! and a shout out to NoVA -- -- i have just moved into DC, but spent the last 18 months living in Falls Church and then Vienna (right next to Tyson's). my old roommate (and still best friend) is finishing up school at GMU. i've used the library there several times.

the point about relative poverty is excellent. on balance, Palestinians have a much higher standard of living when compared to, say, Afghanis. however, the reason for the rise of the Palestinian suicide bomber is the sense of humiliation (and other things, but let's stick with this one factor for now) the young man (and now woman) feels when compared to the strong economic might, free press, high standard of living, and overall success of Israel. it's all about the direct comparison.
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Old 11-09-2004, 07:30 AM   #19
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That's an excellent point about humiliation. It's the psychological element that pushes alot of people over the edge into desperation. Sad but true.
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Old 11-09-2004, 08:01 AM   #20
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Actually Bono has continually alluded to the fact that the extreme poverty and desparation that increasing numbers of Africans are living in, especially the orphaned children left behind by AIDS, are PRIME TARGETS to become the new terrorot threats in coming years.

We all know his Colin Powell quote of how the struggle against terrorism is bound up in the struggle against poverty and we have all heard him say that the Bush Administration (the CIA to be exact) thinks that htere are at least TEN states in Africa that have the chaotic situations in them, partly because of poverty/despair and religious/ethnic conflicts going on inside them that are ready to explode.

And that explosion worries the CIA that it might be channeled into international terrorist organizations (there was an article about this around 6 months ago on Yahoo, but I can't find it now).

So. no matter what "experts" research might show, common sense says that extreme poverty is a part of the terrorist picture.

Like Bob Marley said "A HUNGRY MAN IS AN ANGRY MAN".

Who can disagree with that?
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Old 11-09-2004, 08:16 AM   #21
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Re: Poverty Does NOT Breed Terrorism

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Originally posted by A_Wanderer

Associate Professor of Public Policy Alberto Abadie examined data on terrorism and variables such as wealth, political freedom, geography, and ethnic fractionalization for nations that have been targets of terrorist attacks.
am i the only one confused by the scope of this study?

'nations that have been targets of terrorist attacks' are not also the breeding and training ground for the terrorists who carry out the attacks.

wouldn't the study best be focused on the region where the terrorist was recruited and had his terrorist skills honed?
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Old 11-09-2004, 08:39 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamila
Actually Bono has continually alluded to the fact that the extreme poverty and desparation that increasing numbers of Africans are living in, especially the orphaned children left behind by AIDS, are PRIME TARGETS to become the new terrorot threats in coming years.

We all know his Colin Powell quote of how the struggle against terrorism is bound up in the struggle against poverty and we have all heard him say that the Bush Administration (the CIA to be exact) thinks that htere are at least TEN states in Africa that have the chaotic situations in them, partly because of poverty/despair and religious/ethnic conflicts going on inside them that are ready to explode.

i generally agree with you, but what most people point to -- and as was the case in afghanistan, and as the lovely Sherry Darling pointed out -- failed states with extreme poverty are easier for a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda to move into and set up camp. Al Qaeda wasn't drawing their troops from the Afghani population, but from the larger Arab world, especially those from the Gulf where the most oppressive Arab regimes are in charge. these are humiliated young men with low standards of living (in comparison to their governments), high unemployment, and a religion that keeps women under lock-and-key so they can't even get laid. seriously. do you think the idea of "17 virgins" awaiting a martyer in heaven is incidental?

Africa represents more of a place for terrorists organizations to set up camp, not necessarily draw from the local population. at least for now. it remains to be seen exactly what strand of Islam will spread throughout the African contienent over the next generation.
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Old 11-09-2004, 08:40 AM   #23
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Re: Re: Poverty Does NOT Breed Terrorism

Quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi


am i the only one confused by the scope of this study?

'nations that have been targets of terrorist attacks' are not also the breeding and training ground for the terrorists who carry out the attacks.

wouldn't the study best be focused on the region where the terrorist was recruited and had his terrorist skills honed?
interesting observation, iron chef kobe.

i just hope this little study doesn't begin some sort of trend where people disregard economic egalitarianism in favor of americanized democracy when trying to help less fortunate countries. give 'em democracy and let 'em rot. at least they will get to vote and not be terrorists.
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Old 11-09-2004, 09:57 AM   #24
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At the risk of being attacked for being non PC, I don't believe the subsaharan Africans are likely at all to become Al Queda type terrorists. It is not their lifestyle or their culture as it is among many middle eastern Islamic extremist people. Sorry, bash me all you want, that's where the terrorists are coming from.

Another thing on poverty and terrorism- why are the hillbillies of Appalachia not terrorists? What about poor Mexicans and Central Americans who grow up in those slums you see on Save the Children commercials? Nope, terrorists are *gasp* middle eastern Arab Islamic extremists. (not all Arabs or middle easterners or Muslims are terrorists, of course, but most terrorists are Arab Islamic middle easterners, sorry, hate me, flame me, it doesn't change the facts.)

Poverty is a sad and common fact of life in much of the world, yet the Al Queda type terrorists come from only one region and culture. Coincidence? I think not.
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Old 11-09-2004, 10:41 AM   #25
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One more thing on the cultural/religious thing here: a person who believes that they will be blowing themself up and going to glory can be convinced to become a terrorist. Some middle eastern Arab Muslims (note I said SOME ) are of this belief, mindset and culture, so they will possibly do it.

But look at the poor in America, South and Central America too. What do they want? A better life, hope for the future, a cool car, a nice house, fun electronic stuff. They don't want to die, they want to LIVE and dream! So you aren't going to convince them to blow themselves up for a cause. Also the subsaharan Africans believe in life, happiness, family, not death to themselves and others! So it is very much a cultural and belief system thing, not a monetary one.

While some poor youths in the Americas have turned to the drug culture to get money and may end up getting shot, they don't ever really think it, it's all about the bling bling (or in some case just supporting kids) and not about any cause or glory or martyrdom. There is a huge difference.
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Old 11-09-2004, 10:51 AM   #26
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i have always said envy and hate breed terrorism.

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Old 11-09-2004, 10:58 AM   #27
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I don't believe it's 'envy' at all because they don't want what we have, they don't want to be like us. They hate everything we stand for and want to destroy us. So hate, yes, envy, no way.
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:10 AM   #28
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I think its different for each person...
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:17 AM   #29
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Here's an interesting article (quite a long read though).
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:21 AM   #30
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Terrorism has been around a lot longer than this "war on terror".

It has even existed in places that are supposed to be "against" terrorism. Take for example the lynchings of African-Americans in America's recent past by the KKK (ultimately a "terrorist" organization) and other groups. The black Panthers were labeled "terrorists" in their time. What about the Weather Underground? Doesn't mean these and other groups didn't stand for human rights (I'm no longer talking about the KKK here), although their methods may have unsound.

The point is that "terrorists" are used as pawns by people who have power. And usually the powerful have wealth.

The other point to consider is that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter (eg. the Contras in Nicaragua; the mujahedeen in Afghanistan) depending on which side you stand. Even the Boston Tea Party was viewed by England as a terrorist incident. It's all relative.
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