Post-election Commentaries, Thoughts

[A_Wanderer]

You choose to laugh at the brutality of the Baathists, your morality is rather blinkered when it comes to Iraqi civilians. 16,000 killed in a war of liberation and its all cries and screams, 300,000 bodies with their skulls blown out are dug out of the desert sands and you cant seem to care.

Please download this file

http://www.aei.org/audioLib/200406182_vts_01_0.mpg.avi.mpg

and watch it, feel free to post the pictures of the many dead killed by the US but at least look at the other side of the coin. That regime was as brutal as the Nazi regime and the Soviet Union, the magnitude of the destruction was smaller but in brutality it matched it.

Dont you ever look away and excuse evil in the name of peace, to do so you would be a partner in the crime.

Peace of the Grave is all you will get by tollerating such evil.

 

[U2_Guy]

You choose to laugh at the brutality of the Baathists, your morality is rather blinkered.

Please download this file

http://www.aei.org/audioLib/200406182_vts_01_0.mpg.avi.mpg

and watch it, feel free to post the pictures of the many dead killed by the US but at least look at the other side of the coin. That regime was as brutal as the Nazi regime and the Soviet Union, the magnitude of the destruction was smaller but in brutality it matched it.

Dont you ever look away and excuse evil in the name of peace.

You should try to be an american citizen. And you should join the US army to show how strong your convictions are in Iraq.

 

[speedracer]

"It´s not pretty nor is it a good thing" is not enough

And yet, this is all we can do, because in some situations the consequences of all possible actions will be somewhat horrific.

 

[speedracer]

You should try to be an american citizen. And you should join the US army to show how strong your convictions are in Iraq.

Maybe you'd like to be a human shield?

 

[anitram]

"It´s not pretty nor is it a good thing" is not enough, because you base your judgement solely on your intellect. Not your heart, and not your soul.

I'm kind of going to agree with hip hop but with a caveat.

A_Wanderer is actually somebody whose posts I love to read, for a number of reasons. I think he's a huge asset here, so this isn't a personal statement against him.

I think A_W, sometimes when I read your posts, you say "war is ugly, war is horrible", but you have not lived it, it is a statement you make based on what you see and what you read. I lived through a war, I was a refugee at the age of 11, I was separated from my family, only my brother and I (he was 8 at the time) were left together. We were hungry, we were scared, we lost people we knew, we were huddled in a 3x5 room with 4 other kids for days. You don't eat, you don't move, you don't piss and you don't sleep and it doesn't matter if you have to or if you're sick of it all. I've not slept properly in 14 years, and I'm one of the lucky ones. You have to understand that when the war is over, it took me every last bit of my humanity to get up in the morning and say, "I will be better than this." It is incredibly difficult to not say, I'll get a gun and go shoot back. It's incredibly difficult to go at night and pray for people who shot at you and I today wish them the very best. They were probably good people stuck in a terrible situation, and I hope that their children never go through what I went through. It takes everything you have to rise above it and join the world and function on a higher plane. And you NEVER, ever get over it, not until the day you die. It is with you, inside you. Sometimes you want to jump out of your skin so badly, you want to be somewhere, anywhere that isn't here.

War destroys people, it kills their souls and kills their spirits and very, very few of us lucky ones, for one reason or another end up functioning in the real world in a manner that you would never be able to tell our story. But we still carry it inside, every moment of every day.

War is hell. War is an event where rich people get richer and poor people die. And if you've lived it, for just one moment as a civilian with no guilt, your heart breaks into a million pieces when you see it happening anywhere in the world.

That is why I oppose GWB. He doesn't know war, he doesn't know what sacrifice is, and he doesn't know hell. He gets to fall asleep tonight, and I lie there awake until 3.

 

[U2_Guy]

Maybe you'd like to be a human shield?

If i had the chance to defend the ones i love i'd be a shield for them. Not to ppl i dunno. I don't want to be a hero for strangers. Only to the ppl who are close to me and for whom i care.

The best and most efficient way for me to be a "human shield" would be voting for anyone but that monkey Bush. But i don't vote in America...

 

[speedracer]

If i had the chance to defend the ones i love i'd be a shield for them. Not to ppl i dunno. I don't want to be a hero for strangers. Only to the ppl who are close to me and for whom i care.

In other words, your concern for the people of Iraq is just as abstract as everyone else's.

 

[U2_Guy]

In other words, your concern for the people of Iraq is just as abstract as everyone else's.

I don't think you get what i'm saying (what a surprise...)

I do care about the poor ppl in Iraq as much as any good person would.

If i'm not planning to be a "human shield" for them that doesn't mean i don't care for them... Don't be a maniqueist child...

And if i had the chance to rearrange things in Iraq i'd start by voting for Kerry. That would be the only thing i could do.

 

[A_Wanderer]

You are absolutely right Anitram, I have no experience on such matters nor do I claim to, or that war is glorious and idealized or that it makes peoples lives better and is a good thing but from that position, without the experience of suffering and knowing how good my life is away from the violence, just looking at figures; a case can be made (I just got a little hot under the collar when someone excused the brutality of the Baathists, that is not an anti-war position that is pro-Dictator), and it is a very difficult thing to do, I hope that I have at least contributed somewhat here because I am often in the unenviable position of trying to advocate things that I am personally against but will to maintain a consistent line of argument.

I would not ever want the decision to go to war or not to rest on my shoulders, that burden would be too hard to bear.

 

[speedracer]

I don't think you get what i'm saying (what a surprise...)

I do care about the poor ppl in Iraq as much as any good person would.

If i'm not planning to be a "human shield" for them that doesn't mean i don't care for them... Don't be a maniqueist child...

And if i had the chance to rearrange things in Iraq i'd start by voting for Kerry. That would be the only thing i could do.

By symmetry, your challenge to A_Wanderer to join the US Army was total garbage as well.

 

[U2_Guy]

By symmetry, your challenge to A_Wanderer to join the US Army was total garbage as well.

No my son... this guy A wanderer have been deffending wars and Bush like his life depended on it.

I'm not deffending here Sadaam. I'm just saying that if A Wanderer likes to talk so much about how wars are needed sometimes (something you can never say without real life experience on the issue like Anitram brilliant said), he should go to Iraq and see if his convictions will be the same...

 

[U2_Guy]

Now i have to sleep (it's 2:41 here) and maybe i'll dream of a peaceful world tonight (how corny is that huh...hehe)

Good nite kids...

 

[speedracer]

No my son... this guy A wanderer have been deffending wars and Bush like his life depended on it.

I'm not deffending here Sadaam. I'm just saying that if A Wanderer likes to talk so much about how wars are needed sometimes (something you can never say without real life experience on the issue like Anitram brilliant said), he should go to Iraq and see if his convictions will be the same...

Ah yes. Attack the debater, not the argument. Classic technique.

You know, there are soldiers and veterans around the world who believe the mission in Iraq is just as well.

 

[hiphop]

You choose to laugh at the brutality of the Baathists

Dont you ever look away and excuse evil in the name of peace, to do so you would be a partner in the crime.

Peace of the Grave is all you will get by tollerating such evil.

No, I am not laughing at the brutality of Baathists.

I am just looking at the other side of the coin from a different perspective. Like I said, this is not about taking sides. This is about cruelty and evil itself.

I am not excusing evil in the name of peace. I stand for peace, not for evil. For peace, without taking sides. I don´t believe that war brings peace. Even when the flames are all long gone, the pain lingers on (quoting Waters there). For generations, and generations.

What do you know about pain?

I know enough about the horror to condemn the leader of the so-called free world. Sure, Saddam was a cruel dictator, and sure, some Iraqis are happy he is removed, others obviously are not.

But the principles of good vs. evil are NOT about who is the better political leader. Whoever has blood on his hands, shall be burning in hell, according to my belief.

This is why admiration and dancing and smiling for a man who is ultimately responsible for much, much, much pain - more pain than we all can imagine - makes me sick.

I guess we will continue to disagree, because my perspective is different from yours. In some twisted way, you think war brings peace, and kind of wipes away pain, probably with a big bomb. In some twisted way, you think you can add and substract victims, to calculate numbers, like a mad army general.

I don´t buy that.

However, the whole discussion started because some are partying and hailing and dancing, because Bush is back in office.

What do you know about pain?

I wanted to make you think about that a second time.

Obviously, I have succeeded.

Don´t ever forget that.

Thank you.

 

[Boston01]

Speaking as an ex combat officer in the US Army, I have to say I agree and disagree with a lot of what is said here. On one side, war is never desirable. You will never forget anything you see. It is horrible. On the other side, there seems to be a rationale that war is never justified. There also seems to be a notion that others don't deserve freedom if there is a cost associated to it. I for one have grown increasingly angered at the UN for utterly failing to support the rights and freedoms of ALL people on this planet. You either choose to act or not. There are consequences to either.

 

[hiphop]

I'm kind of going to agree with hip hop but with a caveat.

A_Wanderer is actually somebody whose posts I love to read, for a number of reasons. I think he's a huge asset here, so this isn't a personal statement against him.

I think A_W, sometimes when I read your posts, you say "war is ugly, war is horrible", but you have not lived it, it is a statement you make based on what you see and what you read. I lived through a war, I was a refugee at the age of 11, I was separated from my family, only my brother and I (he was 8 at the time) were left together. We were hungry, we were scared, we lost people we knew, we were huddled in a 3x5 room with 4 other kids for days. You don't eat, you don't move, you don't piss and you don't sleep and it doesn't matter if you have to or if you're sick of it all. I've not slept properly in 14 years, and I'm one of the lucky ones. You have to understand that when the war is over, it took me every last bit of my humanity to get up in the morning and say, "I will be better than this." It is incredibly difficult to not say, I'll get a gun and go shoot back. It's incredibly difficult to go at night and pray for people who shot at you and I today wish them the very best. They were probably good people stuck in a terrible situation, and I hope that their children never go through what I went through. It takes everything you have to rise above it and join the world and function on a higher plane. And you NEVER, ever get over it, not until the day you die. It is with you, inside you. Sometimes you want to jump out of your skin so badly, you want to be somewhere, anywhere that isn't here.

War destroys people, it kills their souls and kills their spirits and very, very few of us lucky ones, for one reason or another end up functioning in the real world in a manner that you would never be able to tell our story. But we still carry it inside, every moment of every day.

Thank you.

Finally someone understands what I´m talking about.

I am very sorry for your experiences.

God bless you.

Sleep well tonight.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Yes that is exactly what I believe we can blow things up and make the world better and that the US is the greatest and most perfect country ever in the history of the world and all that dont agree are "evil terrorists" - read the bloody journal entry I made and I make it abundantly clear what I am trying to do here and why.

War is the fucking antithesis of life!

Here is the entry

Only political forum worth its salt on the web, I confess though the flame baiting probably should stop - its just asking for trouble. I just think that nothing reveals others political persuasions best than by putting forth an outrageous position and seeing if it will float. Arguably not the best way to shape peoples perceptions of oneself but it certainly is good in initiating debate on any topic, of course once making an outrageous statement one cannot backtrack on it without eliminating the fun of the discourse.

That is as it was written a few weeks ago and I stand by it, if people genuinely knew what I believed then the quality of debate would diminish because it would be much of a muchness, but even now if you assume what I am hinting at of my opinions you dont know if thats true - it lies arond the middle in any case.

 

[speedracer]

No, I am not laughing at the brutality of Baathists.

I am just looking at the other side of the coin from a different perspective. Like I said, this is not about taking sides. This is about cruelty and evil itself.

I am not excusing evil in the name of peace. I stand for peace, not for evil. For peace, without taking sides. I don´t believe that war brings peace. Even when the flames are all long gone, the pain lingers on (quoting Waters there). For generations, and generations.

What do you know about pain?

I know enough about the horror to condemn the leader of the so-called free world. Sure, Saddam was a cruel dictator, and sure, some Iraqis are happy he is removed, others obviously are not.

But the principles of good vs. evil are NOT about who is the better political leader. Whoever has blood on his hands, shall be burning in hell, according to my belief.

This is why admiration and dancing and smiling for a man who is ultimately responsible for much, much, much pain - more pain than we all can imagine - makes me sick.

I guess we will continue to disagree, because my perspective is different from yours. In some twisted way, you think war brings peace, and kind of wipes away pain, probably with a big bomb. In some twisted way, you think you can add and substract victims, to calculate numbers, like a mad army general.

I don´t buy that.

However, the whole discussion started because some are partying and hailing and dancing, because Bush is back in office.

What do you know about pain?

I wanted to make you think about that a second time.

Obviously, I have succeeded.

Don´t ever forget that.

Thank you.

I see your technique.

You compare the graphic "blood on Bush's hands" with the amorphous, vague, generalized "cruelty" of Saddam's dictatorship. When you put it that way, who can argue with you?

Except that Saddam also has plenty of blood on his hands -- innocent people and political opponents who have been and would continue to have been mercilessly tortured and killed, innocent Israelis who have been blown up by Saddam-sponsored bombers, etc.

At some point, you need to figure out which is the lesser of two evils. Just because someone reaches a different conclusion from you doesn't mean that he or she doesn't appreciate the horrors involved in making that choice.

 

[A_Wanderer]

E-FUCKING-NUF

this post-election commentary thread is busted, it is about recrimination and attacking. Running in goddamn circles people.

People appeal to others sense of right and wrong to win arguments, they use language to their advantage alluding to the cimes of one or the other to swing the opinion their way - everybody does it, nobody should feel guilty about it end of story!

You support peace HipHop, well I do too; what do you know we have something in common, leave it at that.

Stop this crazy thing.

 

[nbcrusader]

Guys like StlEvation, Headache in a Suitcase and that funny australian (Wanderer something) are just your typical redneck. It's a waste of time trying to come up with facts (they will deny those are facts) and good sense. They are warmongers, they still believe church must be united to the governments (yeah, i know, long gone the human race evolved to know it's not right to mix religion/governments), they still do NOT believe when they see/read about the killing of innocents by the USA (yeah, they think the media is a bunch of communists who are trying to wash their brains with false images), they don't care about the rest of the world (actually, they know nothing about the ROW) and they really believe America is the country chosen by God to "guide" all ppl to the "light" and they believe monkey Bush is the chosen one to lead the masses to the promised paradise.

Talking to them and trying to put some sense into their minds is pretty much useless. It's like talking to a wall.

And they think they are pretty smart and clever by posting pics of that monkey Bush or dropping some bad taste one liners...

Poor ppl...

Yeah, we need a special forum for those with superior intellect, like yourself, so you won't have to deal with me and my fellow redneck morons.

 

[speedracer]

E-FUCKING-NUF

Is that the name of a porn site?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Yes the sexy letter E gets it on with NUF in a hillarious teen sex romp from the producers that brought you 8 The C.

 

[Diemen]

I know some are upset about the broad generalizations made against Christians, so let me clarify my position.

If you believe homosexuality is wrong and a sin, then that is your belief and no one has a right to deny that belief. However, if your neighbor believes homosexuality is a natural phenomenon and perfectly acceptable, then that is his belief, and you cannot deny him that. Many people in this country have different belief systems, and it is truly a great thing about this country that so many different religions and belief systems are allowed to coexist.

Here is the problem I have with some Christian conservatives. They try to turn their belief system into a law that affects everyone, regardless of faith or belief. If you don't want gays to get married, that is absolutely fine with me as long as you keep it confined to the rules of your religion. I may not agree with your beliefs, but as long as you aren't pushing them onto the rest of the nation, I will respect them. But when you transcribe your religious beliefs into the law of this land and forbid people who are in a committed and loving relationship from receiving equal protection under the law, then you ARE a bigot. In effect you are saying that gays are not equal because of their sexual orientation. You are saying that gays are not deserving of equal protection, regardless of how strong, deep and true their love and commitment for each other may be. It is almost the same spirit that calls an African American inferior because of the color of their skin. And that is bigotry, plain and simple.

And the Republicans used that to their full advantage, because many among the Christian believe our government should be a fully Christian government that fully supports the Christian viewpoint above all others (except when it comes to unfairly favoring the rich and big industry). I'll even go out on a limb and say that one of the main reasons George Bush was re-elected was the issue of gay marriage.

 

[Diemen]

I'd also like to add that calling A_Wanderer, Headache, nbcrusader or anyone else who supports Bush a redneck moron is completely idiotic.

They are all very intelligent people who just happen to have some very screwy ideas.

 

[indra]

I'd also like to add that calling A_Wanderer, Headache, nbcrusader or anyone else who supports Bush a redneck moron is completely idiotic.

They are all very intelligent people who just happen to have some very screwy ideas.

Hahaha!

 

[A_Wanderer]

Darn Tootin'

 

[indra]

In a US House race in Northern Kentucky the Republican candidate had an ad that stated his opponent "believes religion has no place in public school curriculums". AS if that's a bad thing! At first I couldn't believe it, but kept hearing it.

And the jerk won! By more than he was expected to (it was supposed to be a tight race. I can't have any respect for people who heard that ad and still voted for him.

 

[Party Boy]

Innocent people die in war, they get their legs blown off, they get their brains splattered across back walls - it is not pretty nor is it a good thing.

Innocent people also die in the peace, they are starved to death, die from diseases that would be treatable if the resources were getting to the hospitals, they are tortured to death and cut to pieces by the mukabarat.

There is always a cost, through action or inaction - nobody should forget that.

Here in the UK there is some lobbying that the UK should apologise to Germany for "excessive" bombing during WW2 which killed 2 million civilians when Cologne and a number of other cities were flattened.

In wars, civilians die. Its been the case of every war fought throughout history, and I daresay it will continue that way till the word war no longer exists.

 

[A_Wanderer]

/Must resist urge to make Fawlty Towers reference

 

[Party Boy]

/Must resist urge to make Fawlty Towers reference

My g/f is German and I've managed to get her to watch Fawlty Towers. Clearly a humour gap as she did not get it at all!