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Old 11-05-2004, 10:29 AM   #436
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I agree...and what in the world is ROW?

I agree totally. That's how I feel.

R.O.W. -- Rest Of the World
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:29 AM   #437
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the end goal -- the establishment of democracy in the Middle East -- was a good one.
You can't force a country into democracy. Who says they want democracy? Those arab countries don't have the "democracy" background and the ones i talk don't even want it. Democracy is a relatively new thing and you can't force a whole ppl into it. Not even in a peaceful way.

Who gives the US the right to invade, to bomb countries and to force them into democracy?

On the other side, are you so naive to believe that what your country really wants is to "bring democracy" to those countries? HA HA HA. Why don't they do it in Africa? Cause Africa has no oil right? Nor they can control an estrategic country like Iraq cause they don't need estrategic positions in Africa.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:30 AM   #438
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even you who i read is gay and who must suffer like hell in the USA.
Is there some mass exodus of gays that would support your statement?
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:32 AM   #439
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I don't see that gays are suffering. They have challenges in this world just like EVERYBODY ELSE!!!

If they're strong enough they can really challenge these amendments. I mean, it's not like they don't have resources. Here in Utah we're well aware that there will probably be some expensive court battles out of this.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:36 AM   #440
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'Oh, merde!'"

In many languages, that was Europe's reaction to George W. Bush's victory: not quite shock and awe, perhaps, but fury, incomprehension and frustration, with muted cheers coming from only a few pro-Bush corners. If the result left America bitterly divided, it left Europe remarkably united — wondering why Americans would want another four years of a man whose words and deeds have alienated most of the U.S.'s allies.

No American election in living memory has riveted Europeans the way this one has, and that intense focus wasn't merely driven by hatred for Bush (though there is, of course, plenty of that to go around). Instead, Europe looked to this election to settle a deeper question: whether America itself had become an alien planet, one with values and perceptions so different from Europe's that the great postwar Atlantic alliance might never be repaired. By re-electing the President, even by such a slim margin, America has provided what many Europeans will take as definitive proof that the U.S. really is an incomprehensible place — and that the chasms and fights of the past several years are likely to continue. The President's win "erodes the view that one must distinguish between the disliked Bush Administration and the American society we've always loved," says André Kaspi, director of the Sorbonne's North American History Center.

Never mind that 55 million Americans voted to send Bush back to Texas. Never mind that of those who considered Iraq the country's most important issue, 74% voted for Kerry. The American conservatives — whose policies have helped push global attitudes toward the U.S. to an all-time low — have won again. To Europe, that suggests that the mutual disdain will continue, and that Europe and the U.S. are bound to drift further apart, even if their size and importance condemn them to keep doing business together. "There is in fact a certain degree of astonishment," says Gernot Erler, foreign-policy spokesman for Germany's ruling Social Democrats. "If a German Chancellor were to take the country to war on reasons that turned out to be wrong, he would have no chance of being re-elected." Says David Mepham, head of the international program at the Institute for Public Policy Research in London: "I think I'm going to be depressed for the next four years. Bush is going to feel like he has a mandate to do whatever he wants."

Can it really be so grim? Is there any chance Bush can return to his first-term pledge to be "a uniter, not a divider," even across the ocean? The good news — at least from Europe's viewpoint — is that Bush's second-term program may be chastened by his first-term failures. As long as American forces are bogged down in Iraq, the chance of further military action against Iran or Syria becomes more remote. Faced with a need for continued help in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, Washington may become better at asking than commanding.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:37 AM   #441
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You can't force a country into democracy. Who says they want democracy? Those arab countries don't have the "democracy" background and the ones i talk don't even want it. Democracy is a relatively new thing and you can't force a whole ppl into it. Not even in a peaceful way.

Who gives the US the right to invade, to bomb countries and to force them into democracy?

On the other side, are you so naive to believe that what your country really wants is to "bring democracy" to those countries? HA HA HA. Why don't they do it in Africa? Cause Africa has no oil right? Nor they can control an estrategic country like Iraq cause they don't need estrategic positions in Africa.
you're so cynical it's naive. and simplistic.

when countries embark on massive operations like the invasion of other countries, there are a MULTITUDE of factors and a MULTITUDE of goals and a MULTITUDE of considerations that go into the creation of policy. was securing one of the world's greatest oil producers one of those goals? yes. was trying to establish a democracy in the Middle East another one of those goals? yes. these things are not mutually exclusive, and you're naive and simplistic to think that there's only one reason behind something so big.

why not Africa? hey, i think it would be great, and i think that's what we should be doing, but states are not moral agents. no country on earth ever acts in a purely moral fashion, which is simply reality. every country in the history of the world does what is in their best interests first, and hopefully this is also the moral thing to do.

what gives the US the right? well, the ability to do so. what gave the Russians the right to invade Chechnya?

i admire your idealism, but think you need to do more reading.

though i agree -- you can't force a country into democracy.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:38 AM   #442
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The President's win "erodes the view that one must distinguish between the disliked Bush Administration and the American society we've always loved," says André Kaspi, director of the Sorbonne's North American History Center.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:41 AM   #443
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what gives the US the right? well, the ability to do so. what gave the Russians the right to invade Chechnya?

I ask you, according to your point of view: what gives terrorists the right to bomb America? Well, the ability to do so.

In my view, invading Iraq was as much a terrorist act as the 09/11 was.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:41 AM   #444
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Is there some mass exodus of gays that would support your statement?

many gay americans have moved to western europe and especially Canada where there is a much more overall tolerant climate and wonderful domestic partnership laws, if not outright marriage (Denmark, Belgium).
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:43 AM   #445
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I don't see how we're bitterly divided. Nope. Only a few of the extreme ones, but I live day by day by people who voted for Bush, we smile at each other, we like each other, we pass. Some are family and friends. Yes, Americans are "bitterly divided". I even saw one Ohio neighborhood, I think, who had opposite signs on all their lawns for their favorite candidates and they all got together in one house and had a party and watched the elections and walked away saying "we may think differently but we're still neighbors." Yes, we're bitterly divided.

It seems to me that the ROW and especially Europe are more divided than we are.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:43 AM   #446
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I'd be interested to see data on that point.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:43 AM   #447
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I ask you, according to your point of view: what gives terrorists the right to bomb America? Well, the ability to do so.

In my view, invading Iraq was as much a terrorist act as the 09/11 was.

erm, everyone knew the invasion of Iraq was coming. it was discussed at the UN, Saddam Hussein was given ample warning, etc. this was a clear military maneuver of one state (the US) against another (Iraq).

9-11 came literally out of the blue and killed 3,000 people who simply got up and went to work that day.

there is a big difference, though at the end of the day, people are dead. but i do think the methods are important.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:44 AM   #448
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I don't see how we're bitterly divided. Nope. Only a few of the extreme ones, but I live day by day by people who voted for Bush, we smile at each other, we like each other, we pass. Some are family and friends. Yes, Americans are "bitterly divided". I even saw one Ohio neighborhood, I think, who had opposite signs on all their lawns for their favorite candidates and they all got together in one house and had a party and watched the elections and walked away saying "we may think differently but we're still neighbors." Yes, we're bitterly divided.

It seems to me that the ROW and especially Europe are more divided than we are.
If the result left America bitterly divided, it left Europe remarkably united — wondering why Americans would want another four years of a man whose words and deeds have alienated most of the U.S.'s allies.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:45 AM   #449
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I really hate anger and bigotry and hate. I really do. Why do non-Americans have it so much? Why? I guess because they're so oppressed.

Still, I hate anger, bigotry and hate. I hate it. I think it's noble to hate those things...the only good things to hate...that and sin.

Why oh why are you so full of hate? Why do you let yourselves be so full of hate.

I'm sure there are some non-Americans who don't. We will go on living and loving and NOT being divided because largely Americans LOVE each other. At least I do.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:46 AM   #450
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erm, everyone knew the invasion of Iraq was coming. it was discussed at the UN, Saddam Hussein was given ample warning, etc. this was a clear military maneuver of one state (the US) against another (Iraq).

9-11 came literally out of the blue and killed 3,000 people who simply got up and went to work that day.

there is a big difference, though at the end of the day, people are dead. but i do think the methods are important.
Oh i c: if you warn ppl b4 that you gonna kill them its ok...

And my friend: the UN didn't allow the invasion. And if Hussein was ample warned he did what he had to do: nothing. CAUSE IT WAS PROVED THEY DIDN'T HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!
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