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Old 11-04-2004, 03:13 PM   #361
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I only know possible theories but nothing concrete. From what I understand, people point to a combination of things from environment, genetics, etc... Reading some of the above posts people make it sound like its absolute truth that its "genetic" and I'd like to find out more about the smoking gun.

~note... I believe there maybe some genetic predisposition...

there's no definitive proof yet, but it is definitive that, no matter what, being gay is involuntary. therefore, to discriminate based upon something the person can do nothing about, and which harms no one, is morally wrong.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:15 PM   #362
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being gay is involuntary = genetic... otherwise are people pressured into it? Somone put a gun to people's heads. That made no sense.... but don't worry, I rarely make any sense
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:18 PM   #363
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Originally posted by Flying FuManchu
being gay is involuntary = genetic... otherwise are people pressured into it? Somone put a gun to people's heads. That made no sense.... but don't worry, I rarely make any sense
Don't feel bad. I've been accused of not making much sense in the past either.

I still think it's a choice. It's always a choice. Always. Exactly...is someone putting a gun to their head. I choose to breathe, and some would say that's natural...but I can hold my breath if I want. I could even suffocate myself.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:20 PM   #364
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Originally posted by Irvine511
there's no definitive proof yet, but it is definitive that, no matter what, being gay is involuntary. therefore, to discriminate based upon something the person can do nothing about, and which harms no one, is morally wrong.
You forget the 70's when we were told it was a lifestyle choice.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:21 PM   #365
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Originally posted by Flying FuManchu
being gay is involuntary = genetic... otherwise are people pressured into it? Somone put a gun to people's heads. That made no sense.... but don't worry, I rarely make any sense

please re-read. being gay is involuntary. no one chooses it. maybe it is 100% genetic. maybe it isn't. no one knows yet, and research is being done right now into that question. most scientists would argue that genetics play a very large part in determining sexual orientation.

the important thing to remember is this: you don't choose what turns you on. your body responds to a series of stimuli. there is no conscious choice involved in that response.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:22 PM   #366
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Originally posted by Irvine511



please re-read. being gay is involuntary. no one chooses it. maybe it is 100% genetic. maybe it isn't. no one knows yet, and research is being done right now into that question. most scientists would argue that genetics play a very large part in determining sexual orientation.

the important thing to remember is this: you don't choose what turns you on. your body responds to a series of stimuli. there is no conscious choice involved in that response.
Being lazy, swearing, eating too much, being rude, stinking, addiction is natural, too, but some people choose to overcome it because it's a good thing to. Sometimes you have to overcome the natural man. Sometimes God asks us to. He gives us weaknesses to make us strong.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:25 PM   #367
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Religion is a choice. So is homosexuality. I was BORN LDS. But, I still have to choose it, believe me. It's not easy.

Anyway, I don't get your point. "If sexual attraction was a choice and there was no salvation or life altering decision to go along with why not just choice the other sex...no harm no foul and you get to save your life. So as I said before the analogy doesn't equate." You need to make yourself more clear.
Ok look this is the last time.

Religion is choice. With that choice comes your belief in salvation.

"I am a ______(fill in your religion) therefore I am saved."

Ok so this is a choice worth being persecuted for, due to the strong belief that when all is said and done your soul will be saved.

Ok so now let's say sexuality is a choice like you say it is.

Choice A: allows you the safety of being in a relationship where the rest of society allows you the right to get married. Also there is no persecution for this choice.

Choice B: no safety, not allowed to marry, people call you sinner and your life is at risk due to some bigot with anger issues.

Now keep in mind this is a choice according to you. Neither one of these choices come with a promise of salvation or any other reason to deal with persecution or to risk you life. Which choice looks more appealing to you?

Religion comes with a promise that is worth these persecutions.

Choosing an ice cream flavor doesn't. If sexuality was a choice it would be no different than choosing an ice cream flavor. Who do you know that would die over vanilla ice cream?!

It's also not like a drug. A drug offers you a high. Straight, gay they would just be flavors one doesn't offer you more than the other. So don't bring in the whole addiction thing.

The analogies don't work. They aren't all choices.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:25 PM   #368
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You forget the 70's when we were told it was a lifestyle choice.

yes, much psychological research from the 1970s has been tossed out the window. we've all evolved.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:26 PM   #369
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Originally posted by Irvine511
the important thing to remember is this: you don't choose what turns you on. your body responds to a series of stimuli. there is no conscious choice involved in that response.

We have a number of involuntary responses to stimuli - how we react to the stimuli is a different story. I might find the company intern attractive, but acting on that stimuli is my conscious decision.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:28 PM   #370
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


Being lazy, swearing, eating too much, being rude, stinking, addiction is natural, too, but some people choose to overcome it because it's a good thing to. Sometimes you have to overcome the natural man. Sometimes God asks us to. He gives us weaknesses to make us strong.


so choosing not to fall in love with someone, create my own family, and hopefully adopt a child is something god is asking me not to do?

it's awfully easy for someone who isn't homosexual to say, essentially, "get over it." i'd rather lead an authentic life, because i know i will be less of a human being and contribute less to the world should i embrace a lifestyle of inauthenticity, deception, and denial.

and i don't believe in your notions of god. i think the human need to put a human face and attributes, the idea that God "asks" anyone to do anything is amazingly self-centered.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:31 PM   #371
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Originally posted by nbcrusader



We have a number of involuntary responses to stimuli - how we react to the stimuli is a different story. I might find the company intern attractive, but acting on that stimuli is my conscious decision.

yes, but you're not acting on a single instance. we're talking about *all* attraction that a homosexual feels. there are options for you beyond your company intern, there are no options for me beyond other homosexual members of my gender.

it's amazing how people can toss these ideas around -- just don't act on it! -- when they could never live taht way themselves.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:31 PM   #372
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Ok look this is the last time.

Religion is choice. With that choice comes your belief in salvation.

"I am a ______(fill in your religion) therefore I am saved."

Ok so this is a choice worth being persecuted for, due to the strong belief that when all is said and done your soul will be saved.

Ok so now let's say sexuality is a choice like you say it is.

Choice A: allows you the safety of being in a relationship where the rest of society allows you the right to get married. Also there is no persecution for this choice.

Choice B: no safety, not allowed to marry, people call you sinner and your life is at risk due to some bigot with anger issues.

Now keep in mind this is a choice according to you. Neither one of these choices come with a promise of salvation or any other reason to deal with persecution or to risk you life. Which choice looks more appealing to you?

Religion comes with a promise that is worth these persecutions.

Choosing an ice cream flavor doesn't. If sexuality was a choice it would be no different than choosing an ice cream flavor. Who do you know that would die over vanilla ice cream?!

The analogy doesn't work. They are both not choices.
Just FYI, no one in my religion says "I am LDS, therefore I'm saved." That doesn't mean you're saved at ALL.

Umm, if I was a guy and I loved another guy I'd choose homosexuality still.

That's ridiculous. Believe me, it's not easy to choose my religion. You also have to believe it's all true. You have to believe that there's a better life for you if you live worthily. It's no easier, especially not when you are persecuted for your beliefs.

If a gay person believes in being gay strong enough because they love someone, or they just truly believe they're gay then they're going to choose it. It does something for them just like religion does something for those who choose it.

I really don't see the difference.

I think that they choose it because it makes them happy and feel good, at least at the moment, and that makes it worth it to them, just like with religious people.

It's not easier for a religious person like me in my religion to be religious than it is for a homosexual to be homosexual. And BOTH holds promise for these people or they wouldn't choose it.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:32 PM   #373
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so choosing not to fall in love with someone, create my own family, and hopefully adopt a child is something god is asking me not to do?

it's awfully easy for someone who isn't homosexual to say, essentially, "get over it." i'd rather lead an authentic life, because i know i will be less of a human being and contribute less to the world should i embrace a lifestyle of inauthenticity, deception, and denial.

and i don't believe in your notions of god. i think the human need to put a human face and attributes, the idea that God "asks" anyone to do anything is amazingly self-centered.
God DOES have a human face.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:33 PM   #374
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If I may be so bold nbc..I think perhaps it's entirely different to choose not to respond to an attraction to one human being as opposed to an entire gender. You are also married, so that would be a factor, due to your obvious love for your wife I don't mean to get personal, so I apologize for that

In other words, not acting on an attraction to that intern is the equivalent to gay people not acting on their attraction, or forcing themselves to be attracted to the opposite sex somehow? That just doesn't work for me, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:34 PM   #375
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God DOES have a human face.

really? where? could you show it to me?
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