Post-election Commentaries, Thoughts - Page 24 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-04-2004, 02:08 PM   #346
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,999
Local Time: 02:16 PM
I happen to believe the "age old argument" that homosexuals would never consciously make a choice to love who they love when it results in the grief and hatred that some people can subject them to . And quite possibly some have denied themselves that "choice" in fear of that grief and hatred. Or denied what they know from an early age about what gender they are attracted to, for that very reason. I certainly don't presume to speak for anyone here, maybe if they felt comfortable they could speak about that, that's solely up to them obviously

I am attracted to qualities in women that I find attractive in people in general-kindness, good sense of humor, intelligence, and many others. That's what I "choose" to be attracted to I suppose. But I'm not physically or sexually attracted to them, though I certainly can appreciate their beauty. I believe I was born w/ that preference, it wasn't a conscious choice on my part.

I guess I'm naive and idealistic enough to believe that God made us all the way He did, and loves us all equally.
__________________

__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:21 PM   #347
New Yorker
 
Flying FuManchu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Used to live in Chambana. For now the Mid-South.
Posts: 3,153
Local Time: 02:16 PM
Haven't people heard, some scientists believe in the existence of a god gene and there are people who just are predisposed to worship a deity. You know these people actually say they love and follow that deity and stuff. There are some areas where such a belief system are mocked and derided so they have to gather around like minded people in order not to offend. However, they want their beliefs to be accepted as part of the mainstream and don't want government to limit their expression of love toward their deity. However there are non-deity lovers who oppose this and are preventing these people from fully realizing there love (e.g. France).

When you deny one group the same rights (i.e expression of their beliefs) another group has simply because of their genetic orientation, you are a bigot. If you believe it is wrong, that is your belief. But once you push that belief into a law that infringes upon or denies the rights of another citizen, then you are a bigot.
__________________

__________________
Flying FuManchu is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:22 PM   #348
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Flying FuManchu


As for the issue about choice vs. genetics in the homosexual debate... I'm not going to touch it but I'm interested in knowing the "proof" that states gay people are gay b/c of genetics and they can't help it. I only know possible theories but nothing concrete. From what I understand, people point to a combination of things from environment, genetics, etc... Reading some of the above posts people make it sound like its absolute truth that its "genetic" and I'd like to find out more about the smoking gun.

~note... I believe there maybe some genetic predisposition...
Melon's posted some great information on this subject, but I wouldn't know where to begin looking.

All I can say to people who think it's simple as choice is let me know when the last time you chose something that made your parents disown you, your church look down upon you, got you beaten down to the last few breaths of your life and fear telling certain people. Easy choice right? Why risk all of this if really all you do is say I'm attracted to the opposite sex now. There's no cost to changing your mind. It's not like religion when there's a question of salvation at stake. It's not like choosing drugs when your life is at stake. It's just as simple as attraction.

Come on, give me a break.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:23 PM   #349
Acrobat
 
U2Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 472
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I happen to believe the "age old argument" that homosexuals would never consciously make a choice to love who they love when it results in the grief and hatred that some people can subject them to . And quite possibly some have denied themselves that "choice" in fear of that grief and hatred. Or denied what they know from an early age about what gender they are attracted to, for that very reason. I certainly don't presume to speak for anyone here, maybe if they felt comfortable they could speak about that, that's solely up to them obviously

I am attracted to qualities in women that I find attractive in people in general-kindness, good sense of humor, intelligence, and many others. That's what I "choose" to be attracted to I suppose. But I'm not physically or sexually attracted to them, though I certainly can appreciate their beauty. I believe I was born w/ that preference, it wasn't a conscious choice on my part.

I guess I'm naive and idealistic enough to believe that God made us all the way He did, and loves us all equally.
That's not naive. That's the truth. The issue is whether or not he actually MADE some people homosexuals.

I think it could also have some genetic factors. It's possible, just like cancer does. Now I know people will get made at THAT analogy.

Anyway, bottom-line, I don't have a problem with homosexuals, and I don't think that most of the people who voted for those stupid amendments are bigots. I just don't think the whole issue was discussed enough.
__________________
U2Traveller is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:26 PM   #350
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by U2Traveller


I think it could also have some genetic factors. It's possible, just like cancer does. Now I know people will get made at THAT analogy.

Anyway, bottom-line, I don't have a problem with homosexuals
It sure is hard to believe given the fact that you've compared them to cancer and murderers.

I've been absolutely discusted now and ban myself from this discussion.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:27 PM   #351
New Yorker
 
Flying FuManchu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Used to live in Chambana. For now the Mid-South.
Posts: 3,153
Local Time: 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Melon's posted some great information on this subject, but I wouldn't know where to begin looking.

All I can say to people who think it's simple as choice is let me know when the last time you chose something that made your parents disown you, your church look down upon you, got you beaten down to the last few breaths of your life and fear telling certain people. Easy choice right? Why risk all of this if really all you do is say I'm attracted to the opposite sex now. There's no cost to changing your mind. It's not like religion when there's a question of salvation at stake. It's not like choosing drugs when your life is at stake. It's just as simple as attraction.

Come on, give me a break.
You know religion has its share of persecution and unhappiness...

"It's just simple attraction." People do crazy and seemingly irrational stuff even if it's just "attraction." Being "gay" defines some gay people. Would you reject who you feel you are just to feel safe or not have social problems? Some peope wouldn't.
__________________
Flying FuManchu is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:33 PM   #352
Acrobat
 
U2Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 472
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Flying FuManchu


You know religion has its share of persecution and unhappiness...

"It's just simple attraction." People do crazy and seemingly irrational stuff even if it's just "attraction." Being "gay" defines some gay people. Would you reject who you feel you are just to feel safe or not have social problems? Some peope wouldn't.
Exactly...religious people are ALSO persecuted and it IS a choice.

It's just a matter of some people, like you said, WON'T reject what they want or believe for anything.
__________________
U2Traveller is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:35 PM   #353
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,999
Local Time: 02:16 PM
Ok, to change the subject..read this if you're really bored I just skimmed it, but the religion answer looks interesting

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0041104-5.html
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:40 PM   #354
Acrobat
 
U2Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 472
Local Time: 12:16 PM
He said that "no person should impose their religion on society". I'm glad Bush won. I like what he's saying. I think Kerry would've taken us in a totally wrong direction, and I KNOW Bush is good for Utah.

He also said he knows that the American people expect him to be very bi-partisan...exactly. I think he got the message. Hopefully he remembers it.

"To accelerate the momentum of this economy and to keep creating jobs, we must take practical measures to help our job creators, the entrepreneurs and the small business owners." - Yay!
__________________
U2Traveller is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:47 PM   #355
New Yorker
 
Flying FuManchu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Used to live in Chambana. For now the Mid-South.
Posts: 3,153
Local Time: 02:16 PM
This was the most interesting statement made by Bush (for me that is) and most convincing yet I'm not convinced yet...

Quote:
There were -- there was doubt about whether or not those elections would go forward. I'm not suggesting any of you here expressed skepticism. But there was. There was deep skepticism, and -- because there is a attitude among some that certain people may never be free -- they just don't long to be free or incapable of running an election. And I disagree with that. And the Afghan people, by going to the polls in the millions, proved -- proved that this administration's faith in freedom to change peoples' habits is worthy. And that will be a central part of my foreign policy.

And I've got work to do to explain to people about why that is a central part of our foreign policy. I've been doing that for four years. But if you do not believe people can be free and can self-govern, then all of a sudden the two-state solution in the Middle East becomes a moot point, invalid. If you're willing to condemn a group of people to a system of government that hasn't worked, then you'll never be able to achieve the peace. You cannot lead this world and our country to a better tomorrow unless you see a better -- if you have a vision of a better tomorrow. And I've got one, based upon a great faith that people do want to be free and live in democracy.
An interesting point I never thought of.

Otherwise, I hope Bush is able to work with the Dems. Bi-partisan... LOL, I'll believe it when I see it. LOL. Not saying its impossible but if he wants to pass his measures, he's gonna have a lot of problems from the dems, especially with tax reform, social security, and health care.
__________________
Flying FuManchu is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:50 PM   #356
Acrobat
 
U2Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 472
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Altogether I think we made a good choice.

I even felt peace about it afterward.
__________________
U2Traveller is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 02:55 PM   #357
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Flying FuManchu


You know religion has its share of persecution and unhappiness...

"It's just simple attraction." People do crazy and seemingly irrational stuff even if it's just "attraction." Being "gay" defines some gay people. Would you reject who you feel you are just to feel safe or not have social problems? Some peope wouldn't.
Please read my whole post. I mentioned religion. Some people are born into theirs, some find it later in life but no matter what it's CHOICE that keeps you there. But what comes with that a choice? Their salvation! So yes you may get persecuted but you are standing up for the salvation of your soul. Now if sexual attraction was choice and there was no salvation or life altering decision to go along with why not just choice the other sex...no harm no foul and you get to save your life. So as I said before the analogy doesn't equate.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 11-04-2004, 03:02 PM   #358
Acrobat
 
U2Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 472
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Please read my whole post. I mentioned religion. Some people are born into theirs, some find it later in life but no matter what it's CHOICE that keeps you there. But what comes with that a choice? Their salvation! So yes you may get persecuted but you are standing up for the salvation of your soul. Now if sexual attraction was choice and there was no salvation or life altering decision to go along with why not just choice the other sex...no harm no foul and you get to save your life. So as I said before the analogy doesn't equate.
Religion is a choice. So is homosexuality. I was BORN LDS. But, I still have to choose it, believe me. It's not easy.

Anyway, I don't get your point. "If sexual attraction was a choice and there was no salvation or life altering decision to go along with why not just choice the other sex...no harm no foul and you get to save your life. So as I said before the analogy doesn't equate." You need to make yourself more clear.
__________________
U2Traveller is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 03:02 PM   #359
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Ok, to change the subject..read this if you're really bored I just skimmed it, but the religion answer looks interesting

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0041104-5.html
Here is Bush's response to the religion question:

Quote:
Q Mr. President, your victory at the polls came about in part because of strong support from people of faith, in particular, Christian evangelicals and Pentecostals and others. And Senator Kerry drew some of his strongest support from those who do not attend religious services. What do you make of this religious divide, it seems, becoming a political divide in this country? And what do you say to those who are concerned about the role of a faith they do not share in public life and in your policies?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, my answer to people is, I will be your President regardless of your faith, and I don't expect you to agree with me necessarily on religion. As a matter of fact, no President should ever try to impose religion on our society.

A great -- the great tradition of America is one where people can worship the way they want to worship. And if they choose not to worship, they're just as patriotic as your neighbor. That is an essential part of why we are a great nation. And I am glad people of faith voted in this election. I'm glad -- I appreciate all people who voted. I don't think you ought to read anything into the politics, the moment, about whether or not this nation will become a divided nation over religion. I think the great thing that unites is the fact you can worship freely if you choose, and if you -- you don't have to worship. And if you're a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim, you're equally American. That is -- that is such a wonderful aspect of our society; and it is strong today and it will be strong tomorrow.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 03:06 PM   #360
Acrobat
 
U2Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 472
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Yeah, and keep what he said in mind before you start persecuting religious people now.
__________________

__________________
U2Traveller is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com