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Old 11-04-2004, 12:58 PM   #301
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


The person a homosexual hurts most is themselves spiritually.
Maybe you should remove the log from your own eye.

Now I'm understanding why you think us being compared to Saudi Arabia was a complement. I heard it's nice this time of year...
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:59 PM   #302
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Oh, I see. Presumably then it's possible to object to different 'races' without being prejudiced against individuals of that 'race'. Would you say that's true?

Could you also explain on what evidence you base your assertion that homosexuality is a choice?
But being a certain race is NOT a choice.

I'm just stating that religious people believe it's a choice.

I don't think many are truly hateful to homosexual people themselves. They just think it's a sinful lifestyle. They believe that God says it's a sin, thinks it is. If, tomorrow, the prophet of my church said that homosexuality is NOT a sin I would go, oh, alright. I'd wonder why he changed his mind though, why he was so wishy-washy. I might question his authority and his church, much like many questioned Kerry. But, I would NOT have a problem with it NOT being a sin.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:59 PM   #303
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I am not comparing them. I'm showing you how something that some think is a sin is looked at by the person doing it as completely natural!!! And I'm wondering if you'll also stick up for a murderer, or if you'll also say murder is a sin, along with me.

The person a homosexual hurts most is themselves spiritually.
As an athiest, I don't refer to right and wrong in terms of "sin" so I can't condemn murder as a sin, although of course I can say I believe it to be wrong. I also don't accept the contention that homosexuality is "spiritually" harmful and I don't believe anyone can make a value judgement about the "spiritual" harm caused by homosexuality.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:00 PM   #304
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Murderers know it's a sin, if they don't they are psychopaths and that's a completely different subject. No one grows up knowing they are going to be a murderer, that's just fucking ridiculous.

The only way families are harmed are when the members or society can't accept them.
Some homosexuals know it's not normal, too, and many are very unhappy and exhibit psychological and emotional problems.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:00 PM   #305
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I'm just stating that religious people believe it's a choice.
Please don't speak for all religious people, because you are just wrong.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:01 PM   #306
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It is too a choice.

Yes, I do honestly believe people CHOOSE it even though it's a difficult lifestyle to live in this society just like I CHOOSE to be LDS even though I am hated, insulted, and abused for it. Do you think it's easy? No.

you made a choice to be LDS, gay people do not choice when it comes to same-gender attraction. do you consciously choose to feel aroused when you're with the opposite sex? do you say to yourself, "hmmm, i choose to be attracted to this person?" of course not. no one chooses desire.

the ONLY people who believe that homosexuality is a choice are heterosexuals, and really, how would they know?
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:02 PM   #307
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


But being a certain race is NOT a choice.

I'm just stating that religious people believe it's a choice.

I don't think many are truly hateful to homosexual people themselves. They just think it's a sinful lifestyle. They believe that God says it's a sin, thinks it is. If, tomorrow, the prophet of my church said that homosexuality is NOT a sin I would go, oh, alright. I'd wonder why he changed his mind though, why he was so wishy-washy. I might question his authority and his church, much like many questioned Kerry. But, I would NOT have a problem with it NOT being a sin.
Careful about claiming to speak for "religious people." Your religious views are almost certainly a minority among religious people and there are undoubtedly many who would disagree with your claims.

Once again: being gay is not a choice. I would like to see the evidence on which you base your claim that homosexuality is a choice. Having seen the devastating effects of homophobia, I would have to disagree with your claim that there aren't many people who are "truly hateful" to gay people - only this week in London a gay man was murdered for his sexuality, if that isn't the most extreme expression of hatred, I don't know what is.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:02 PM   #308
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Bullcrap. Some people would argue that some people are PRONE to like children as sexual objects!!! They're DRAWN to it!!! How about that? Some people like animals. Some people like to kill women. That's what they FEEL is natural to them.

yes, but people are harmed when children are abused or women are killed. no one is harmed by homosexuality. no one.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:02 PM   #309
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Maybe you should remove the log from your own eye.

Now I'm understanding why you think us being compared to Saudi Arabia was a complement. I heard it's nice this time of year...
You don't understand anything because you're getting me all wrong, and that's because of the glasses you look out of, which I have no problem with...your view.

Anyway, it's a fact that it hurts a person spiritually, just like any sin I commit hurts me. i don't see how that means I have a log in my own eye. I can still say it hurts one spiritually, just like fornication does, or adultery, you know? Or, hmm, swearing. I swear sometimes. I know it hurts me. I'm just stating a fact. No log...lol.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:03 PM   #310
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


Some homosexuals know it's not normal, too, and many are very unhappy and exhibit psychological and emotional problems.
As do many heterosexual people. Mental illness affects one in four people in their lifetime, you can hardly claim it's a byproduct of homosexuality.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:03 PM   #311
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


As an athiest, I don't refer to right and wrong in terms of "sin" so I can't condemn murder as a sin, although of course I can say I believe it to be wrong. I also don't accept the contention that homosexuality is "spiritually" harmful and I don't believe anyone can make a value judgement about the "spiritual" harm caused by homosexuality.
Okay, then you don't believe that you can make a value judgement about anything.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:04 PM   #312
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you made a choice to be LDS, gay people do not choice when it comes to same-gender attraction. do you consciously choose to feel aroused when you're with the opposite sex? do you say to yourself, "hmmm, i choose to be attracted to this person?" of course not. no one chooses desire.

the ONLY people who believe that homosexuality is a choice are heterosexuals, and really, how would they know?
Actually, yes, I do make that conscious choice, frankly, to be attracted to the opposite sex.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:06 PM   #313
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back to a previous issue, i'd like to put this "only rednecks" voted for bush thing to rest once and for all...



every one of those states has a high population... is by no means "redneck," are all on the coast or in the north (with the exception of florida), and all went for kerry (again, with the exception of florida)...

seems like an awful lot of red in them there states.

sure, the places with the highest population centers... new york city, LA, san francisco, miami, seattle... all shaded blue. but look just outside of those areas, in the suburbs... orange county, nassau and suffolk county, etc etc. etc. either white or red. long island has a population of near 3 million people... not exactly redneck boondock country. yet the population was split in half over who to vote for. a hell of a lot more people than just "ignorant redneck hicks" voted to re-elect bush. even asbury park voted bush... perhaps springsteen should've spent a little more time there then he thought.

in fact... now that i go back and look at it... LA... land of the screen actors guild... is just a light shade of blue, and is surrounded by red. i wonder what hollywood thinks about that?
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:06 PM   #314
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Originally posted by U2Traveller
Okay, then you don't believe that you can make a value judgement about anything.
I don't believe you can make a value judgement about homosexuality based on your claim that homosexuality is "spiritually" harmful. Your spiritual beliefs are your own and to someone who doesn't share them, they have about as much credibility as if you were to claim the easter bunny told you homosexuality is a sin. As for making value judgements on other subjects...that's a whole other discussion.
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Old 11-04-2004, 01:06 PM   #315
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I think it's horrible the way some people treat gay people. It's sickening what happens. I think it's wrong. Those are the same people who also treat black people badly, and Jews, and JW's, and Mormons, and women, and children.
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