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Old 11-04-2004, 11:53 AM   #271
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Originally posted by Flying FuManchu
No... but its about the issue of relationships and people's rights... Its taking what you said about, "When you deny one couple the same rights another couple has simply because of their sexual orientation, you are a bigot. If you believe it is wrong, that is your belief. But once you push that belief into a law that infringes upon or denies the rights of another citizen, then you are a bigot. I'm with Irvine - I'm not backing down on this." That can't be a good use/standard of the word bigot.
I don't see how denying someone the same rights you have, because of their sexual orientation, is anything but bigotry.
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:55 AM   #272
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Democrats are going to lose again if they don't stop blaming those who voted for Bush, and if they don't stop insulting people and being prejudiced and trying to find fault with someone else.

Utah is very Republican no matter what. It's a very conservative state and it's become even more conservative now. The whole country has. I don't believe it's because of bigotry, fear, hate, etc. I believe it's because Democrats are losing their minds. They don't look good, period, and they're looking worse and worse.

But, I was willing to risk it and vote Kerry even though many Democrats look truly horrible.

Religious people aren't all bigots. People who are against homosexuality aren't all bigots. People who voted for Bush aren't all bigots and aren't stupid, and are thinking individuals.

This is a very conservative country and it will become more conservative if you give it a reason to.

So, Democrats, it's all your fault. Look at yourselves.

This gay-marriage stuff. I frankly thinks it's the fault of those who oppose it that it passed. I believe that if it had been made more an issue...it was hardly even an issue here in Utah...that people would've thought more, more would've voted no. Period. But, if you don't make a good argument for your side what is there for people to choose from?

I just think it passed in Utah because there wasn't much argument against it, and I know there could've been. If religious and conservative Utahns had been shown how this is bigoted and not necessary they would've voted no, believe me.

Many NON-BIGOTS voted for it.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:03 PM   #273
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Ask people if they are against polygamy, incest, etc. If they say yes, they oppose the incest, polygamy, etc... Then call them bigots right to their face.

People throw around the word bigot too freely.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:04 PM   #274
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Sigh....

Defining marriage is one thing.

Denying a loving, committed monogamous couple the same legal rights as everyone else because they're not straight is quite another.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:06 PM   #275
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Originally posted by U2Traveller

Religious people aren't all bigots. People who are against homosexuality aren't all bigots. People who voted for Bush aren't all bigots and aren't stupid, and are thinking individuals.
You continue to ignore my argument. I can see this is pointless.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:06 PM   #276
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No, you're not. That's just too cut and dried. I don't believe that most people who voted for Bush went there just to vote on these other amendments. They went to vote for Bush, PERIOD. They had something to say and they said it, just like everybody else. Period. Nothing about bigotry. Those issues just happened to be on some ballots. I know that it was NO BIG ISSUE HERE!!! Maybe they should've made it a bigger one.

this is the problem right here: you say "i believe." instead of believing, why don't we consult some evidence? i know this is how the party of GWB operates -- belief vs evidence, faith vs fact -- but the rest of the world prefers evidence. from the Washington Post:


Campaign operatives and analysts point to the same motivating factor: Bush's conservative positions on social issues, particularly his opposition to abortion and his advocacy of a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage. The president developed a national strategy based on those issues during a year when many voters put morality-based themes at the top of their own agendas, exit polling showed.

It all came together perfectly in Ohio where Issue 1, a proposal to amend the state constitution to define marriage as only the union of a man and a woman, passed overwhelmingly on Tuesday.

"The evangelicals turned out, and clearly that issue [same-sex marriage] seems to have driven it," said Paul Tipps, a former state Democratic Party chairman and an informal adviser to Kerry. "I'm tending to believe that the moral values issues did trump" the war in Iraq and the economy for many Bush supporters. Tipps called that a fundamental shift in Ohio politics. "I am stunned," he said. "I didn't see it. This is a state that has historically voted the pocketbook."



you see,
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:12 PM   #277
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Guys like StlEvation, Headache in a Suitcase and that funny australian (Wanderer something) are just your typical redneck.
i'd like to thank you for this brillaint, well thought out comment. seeing as i grew up half an hour outside NYC and have lived here my entire life, i've never actualliy been called a redneck before. i appreciate this new and enlightening experience. perhaps now i should go get myself a NASCAR jacket, some pabst blue ribbon and a horse. be kinda tough takin' a horse onto the long island expressway though... i wonder if they'll late me take him in the HOV lane
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:12 PM   #278
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


Religious people aren't all bigots. People who are against homosexuality aren't all bigots. People who voted for Bush aren't all bigots and aren't stupid, and are thinking individuals.

how can you be against homosexuality? it has always existed, it always will exist ... this is like saying you are against people who like strawberry ice cream or who are left handed or who have red hair. sexual orientation is 100% involuntary, and probably due to a very strong genetic component.

i do agree with your 2nd statement. i have tried, very hard, to say that i do not believe that all GWB supporters are bigots. i know smart people who voted for Bush, and while i disagree with them, their reasons are based upon facts and evidence. i am referring to the specific, defined group that Karl Rove and GOP operatives targeted and motivated to get to the polls through whipping up fear and hatred through homophobia.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:17 PM   #279
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I just don't like how people are who are against gay marriage are just labeled bigots. There are a variety of reasons why people may oppose it and it doesn't have to do with actual "hate of gay people." Lifestyles = regulated all the time (i.e. incest, polygamy). To say someone is a bigot b/c they are denying someone love and the rights they may come with it justifies calling people who oppose polygamy and incest bigots. Because someone wants to regulate a lifestyle doesn't mean they are a bigot.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:39 PM   #280
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Originally posted by Flying FuManchu
I just don't like how people are who are against gay marriage are just labeled bigots. There are a variety of reasons why people may oppose it and it doesn't have to do with actual "hate of gay people." Lifestyles = regulated all the time (i.e. incest, polygamy). To say someone is a bigot b/c they are denying someone love and the rights they may come with it justifies calling people who oppose polygamy and incest bigots. Because someone wants to regulate a lifestyle doesn't mean they are a bigot.
Exactly. Not everyone who opposes it are bigots, just like not everyone who voted for Bush is stupid, or that every white person is racist. See how stupid that is?

True, then people who are against incest are also bigots, because HEY that's someone's choice, and it's a love lifestyle choice!!!

Good point.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:39 PM   #281
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Polygamy is a way of life. It is something that is chosen or learned culturally. Same with incest.

Homosexuality is not something that is chosen or passed down or learned. It just is. It is inherent in a person's nature the same way your sexuality is. In the same way that heterosexuals can't help but be attracted to the opposite sex, homosexuals can't help but be attracted to the same sex.

And I suppose this is where a lot of people disagree with odd notions that homosexuality is a disease that can be cured.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:41 PM   #282
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Exactly. Not everyone who opposes it are bigots, just like not everyone who voted for Bush is stupid, or that every white person is racist. See how stupid that is?
Once again you ignore my argument. NOWHERE did I say that everyone who opposes gay marriage is a bigot (only those who want to deny gays equal LEGAL rights). NOWHERE did I say everyone who voted for Bush is stupid. But it's much more convenient for you to make these blanket statements, rather than deal with the specific issues, isn't it?

Quote:
True, then people who are against incest are also bigots, because HEY that's someone's choice, and it's a love lifestyle choice!!!
Homosexuality is not a choice! Do you honestly believe anyone would choose to be homosexual when there is so much obvious discrimination against them?
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:41 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
Polygamy is a way of life. It is something that is chosen or learned culturally. Same with incest.

Homosexuality is not something that is chosen or passed down or learned. It just is. It is inherent in a person's nature the same way your sexuality is. In the same way that heterosexuals can't help but be attracted to the opposite sex, homosexuals can't help but be attracted to the same sex.

And I suppose this is where a lot of people disagree with odd notions that homosexuality is a disease that can be cured.
Bullcrap. Some people would argue that some people are PRONE to like children as sexual objects!!! They're DRAWN to it!!! How about that? Some people like animals. Some people like to kill women. That's what they FEEL is natural to them.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:43 PM   #284
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Originally posted by Diemen
Homosexuality is not a choice! Do you honestly believe anyone would choose to be homosexual when there is so much obvious discrimination against them?
It is too a choice.

Yes, I do honestly believe people CHOOSE it even though it's a difficult lifestyle to live in this society just like I CHOOSE to be LDS even though I am hated, insulted, and abused for it. Do you think it's easy? No.

It's not easy to be in a straight marriage or relationship, either.

In a way I think it's unnatural to stay with one person all your life, just like Bono does. It's hard.
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Old 11-04-2004, 12:44 PM   #285
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Bullcrap. Some people would argue that some people are PRONE to like children as sexual objects!!! They're DRAWN to it!!! How about that? Some people like animals. Some people like to kill women. That's what they FEEL is natural to them.
So homosexuality is = to murder. Great analogy, you have some issues my friend.
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