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Old 11-04-2004, 07:58 AM   #226
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Michael Moore - Will They Ever Trust You Again?
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Old 11-04-2004, 07:58 AM   #227
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Originally posted by speedracer


Isn't this what happens with a lot of people's beliefs, whether they be religiously informed or not?
Exactly. Non-religious people are trying to do that same thing. Really, people, your arguments that lack true maturity and thinking are falling short. Bottom-line, Bush looked like the better candidate, the lesser of two evils to most - and it was a finger from truly the stronger and more stable people in this country. I even had a hard time voting for Kerry. Many people just didn't trust Kerry. And many people wanted to spit in the face of those who were putting us down. You don't mess with middle America. It truly IS the backbone of this country.
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:09 AM   #228
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good luck at the purgatory.
eh... the pope said that they're getting rid of purgatory. so it's all or none for me.
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:17 AM   #229
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to "nbcrusader": this is *exactly* what i'm talking about. when one is speaking in political terms, one is necessarily forced to group people together. based upon how the Christian right voted, and based upon the fact that 2 out of 10 voters said that "moral values" were important in how they voted (more important than Iraq!), i feel perfectly comfortable saying that this particular group -- probably about 4m people -- are bigots.
then your own bigotry.

Whether they read the Bible or do whatever pleases them at the moment, people want law that reflect their moral values. Period.
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:19 AM   #230
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You people are so naive. You can't say, hey, 4 million people are bigots, that's why they voted for Bush. No, that might not be the case at all. There are many reasons people voted for Bush and stupid Democrats better get together and figure out why Bush won. It's not just because of someone's religious beliefs (which aren't necessarily bigoted), it's not because one prefers war, etc. You need to figure it out.

when states put up amendments not only to ban gay marriage but "all legal incidents thereof" it is bigotry. i'm sorry, i'm not backing down on this. no one believes homosexuality is a choice, except for a few heterosexuals. it is abnormal, but it is a naturally occurring abnormality like being left-handed or having red hair. as for the 4 million -- yes, that is legitimate too. remember 55-60m people voted for Bush, 4 million is a small percentage of that, but that's exactly the number that Karl Rove has been talking about for 4 years. he believes they stayed home in 2000, and he needed to find a way to get them to vote. he did this by gay baiting and using bigotry to lure many (of course not all) of them to the polls. this is further supported by the 2 in 10 voters pointing to "moral values" as their #1 concern.

as for the rest of the Bush voters, of course there are myriad reasons why they voted for Bush. i know sane people who voted for him, and there are perfectly legitimate reasons to do so. american domestic politics are extremely complicated, as i've said many times on other forums. i am talking about a specific group that Karl Rove targeted.

there are many, many parallels to the 1960s. just look at Nixon and the "southern strategy" -- he used racism to turn the south from democrat (dixiecrat) to republican.
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:21 AM   #231
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


then your own bigotry.

Whether they read the Bible or do whatever pleases them at the moment, people want law that reflect their moral values. Period.

and when people take their morals -- which are subjective things, based upon faith and emotion as opposed to reason and evidence -- and use them to limit my personal freedoms and trump the Bible as a basis for discrimination, i'm going to call a spade a spade: bigots.
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:29 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



and when people take their morals -- which are subjective things, based upon faith and emotion as opposed to reason and evidence -- and use them to limit my personal freedoms and trump the Bible as a basis for discrimination, i'm going to call a spade a spade: bigots.
Funny, I know several atheists who oppose gay marriage and most cases of abortion.
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:37 AM   #233
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Originally posted by Irvine511
and when people take their morals -- which are subjective things, based upon faith and emotion as opposed to reason and evidence -- and use them to limit my personal freedoms and trump the Bible as a basis for discrimination, i'm going to call a spade a spade: bigots.
Who doesn't follow their own moral code (objective or subjective)?

What, in essence, you are arguing for is the lowest common denominator moral code (if such a thing exists). That way no law will infringe on someone else unless we all agree to the limitation.
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Old 11-04-2004, 08:39 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



when states put up amendments not only to ban gay marriage but "all legal incidents thereof" it is bigotry. i'm sorry, i'm not backing down on this. no one believes homosexuality is a choice, except for a few heterosexuals. it is abnormal, but it is a naturally occurring abnormality like being left-handed or having red hair. as for the 4 million -- yes, that is legitimate too. remember 55-60m people voted for Bush, 4 million is a small percentage of that, but that's exactly the number that Karl Rove has been talking about for 4 years. he believes they stayed home in 2000, and he needed to find a way to get them to vote. he did this by gay baiting and using bigotry to lure many (of course not all) of them to the polls. this is further supported by the 2 in 10 voters pointing to "moral values" as their #1 concern.

as for the rest of the Bush voters, of course there are myriad reasons why they voted for Bush. i know sane people who voted for him, and there are perfectly legitimate reasons to do so. american domestic politics are extremely complicated, as i've said many times on other forums. i am talking about a specific group that Karl Rove targeted.

there are many, many parallels to the 1960s. just look at Nixon and the "southern strategy" -- he used racism to turn the south from democrat (dixiecrat) to republican.
The people who are bigots who voted for Bush are probably very small. No one knows how many. But, I know my state is Republican and my religion is not full of bigots.

Bottom line...I think that Bush winning was good for the troops overseas. It is very bad to pull the floor right out from under them now. I think the American people were smart and WERE thinking of them. I know I was.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:19 AM   #235
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LOL at calling people who oppose gay marriage bigots... way to go!
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:54 AM   #236
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Guys like StlEvation, Headache in a Suitcase and that funny australian (Wanderer something) are just your typical redneck.
Name-calling is NOT allowed here. Please refrain from such behavior and refer to the FAQ or contact a moderator (such as myself) if you have any questions or concerns.
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:02 AM   #237
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Name-calling is NOT allowed here. Please refrain from such behavior and refer to the FAQ or contact a moderator (such as myself) if you have any questions or concerns.
I bet Pax owes you BIG TIME if you get stuck moding this forum for the next week
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:05 AM   #238
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:13 AM   #239
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Who doesn't follow their own moral code (objective or subjective)?

What, in essence, you are arguing for is the lowest common denominator moral code (if such a thing exists). That way no law will infringe on someone else unless we all agree to the limitation.

i have no idea what you're talking about here. i am talking about political strategy, and the one the Republicans used was based upon hate and fear. and, yes, i do think people who oppose gay marriage are bigots because there is no justifiable opposition to gay marriage unless you are prepared to say that a gay relationship is less worthy than a straight one, which is analagous to saying that an interracial marriage is inherently inferior.

according to today's Washington Post:


"Campaign operatives and analysts point to the same motivating factor: Bush's conservative positions on social issues, particularly his opposition to abortion and his advocacy of a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage. The president developed a national strategy based on those issues during a year when many voters put morality-based themes at the top of their own agendas, exit polling showed. ... "The evangelicals turned out, and clearly that issue [same-sex marriage] seems to have driven it," said Paul Tipps, a former state Democratic Party chairman and an informal adviser to Kerry. "I'm tending to believe that the moral values issues did trump" the war in Iraq and the economy for many Bush supporters. Tipps called that a fundamental shift in Ohio politics. "I am stunned," he said. "I didn't see it. This is a state that has historically voted the pocketbook." The Bush campaign officially stayed out of the same-sex marriage initiative, but Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell (R) said in a letter to supporters that the Bush campaign had asked that he advocate the initiative. Blackwell did radio spots and taped a message that was played in 3 million phone calls to voters. Supporters also mailed out 2.5 million church bulletin inserts."


are all Christians bigots? no. are all Christians opposed to gay marriage? no. are many anti-gay bigots Christians? yes. are most Christians opposed to gay marriage? yes.

for me, this is what it comes down to: religion is a personal thing. keep it out of politics.

finally, more Washington Post:

"Indeed, even close observers of Ohio politics might have missed the Bush campaign's emphasis on social values because much of its outreach efforts occurred away from the mass media. While the two campaigns slugged it out on big-city TV stations with commercials about the war and the economy, Bush's Ohio campaign used targeted mailings, phone calls and doorstep visits to talk about values, said John C. Green, a University of Akron professor who studies religion and politics. Green described one piece of mail from the Bush campaign that featured a beautiful church and a traditional nuclear family. It was headlined, "George W. Bush shares your values. Marriage. Life. Faith."

"It could not have been clearer if it had quoted from the Bible," Green said."
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:13 AM   #240
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I think one person really hit it on the head. I think it's America's finger to all the criticism, especially from Europe. We are a very proud and stubborn people.
Interesting point. Proud and stubborn.

So if I get you right, you mean people from the "backbone" like Utah never change their mind, no matter what? That they spit in the face of everyone who dares to criticize their view?

Basically that would be the unability to accept criticism. Like a child that says "I´m right because I´m right, and besides I got the bigger ..."

Is that what you mean or am I mistaken?
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