Post-election Commentaries, Thoughts

[Irvine511]

Well, i gave the subject (Bush's reelection) more thoughts and i think i'm happy with it.

With him in charge, the USA will sink rapidly, much faster than i thought. It will go down to the ground. And i'll be here laughing at the ppl who put this monkey on the White House again.

Go USA, go for more Vietnams, and one day you gonna get Hiroshima in yer face. It's karma.

Keep your greedy and your hunger for power and money. That will lead you in 20-50 years time to the situation the ex-URSS countries are now.

And we (ROW) will be laughing at you.

As for the ppl who didn't vote for the monkey Bush... good luck. Maybe you can do better next time.

dude ... i dislike Bush as much as you do, and i'm sorry he won re-election.

but all this wish for the downfall of America? all this schadenfreude? all this spite? the need to be vindictive? the need for some kind of revenge?

all this resentment ... maybe you could put your energy into doing something positive rather than laughing and reveling in the misfortunes of others.

 

[U2_Guy]

dude ... i dislike Bush as much as you do, and i'm sorry he won re-election.

but all this wish for the downfall of America? all this schadenfreude? all this spite? the need to be vindictive? the need for some kind of revenge?

all this resentment ... maybe you could put your energy into doing something positive rather than laughing and reveling in the misfortunes of others.

One of the best days in human history will be when Osama Bin Laden decides to drive alone his own plane in the direction of Bush's plane (with Dick aboard), kamikaze way.

It will be a moment of joy for human kind to get rid of Osama, Bush and Dick at the same time!

 

[U2Traveller]

Hmm. I like the idea of Osama being a Kamikaze. I hope, I hope, I hope, that we'll get special forces over there (they say there are some) and dig those people out, and kill every terrorist there is. You know we could do it without such a big, high-falutin' war. Urrgh! That's why I voted for Kerry.

 

[Irvine511]

One of the best days in human history will be when Osama Bin Laden decides to drive alone his own plane in the direction of Bush's plane (with Dick aboard), kamikaze way.

It will be a moment of joy for human kind to get rid of Osama, Bush and Dick at the same time!

its these kinds of thoughts that make life for us on the left very, very difficult. how could you ever expect to convince someone of the veracity of your arguments with such a silly scenario?

yes, Bush is bad. but comparing Bush to Osama Bin Laden is both incorrect, offensive, and ultimately destructive to the advancement of your own beliefs because no one will possibly take you seriously when you adovcate such insanity.

and here i go, taking you seriously and responding ...

 

[U2Traveller]

its these kinds of thoughts that make life for us on the left very, very difficult. how could you ever expect to convince someone of the veracity of your arguments with such a silly scenario?

yes, Bush is bad. but comparing Bush to Osama Bin Laden is both incorrect, offensive, and ultimately destructive to the advancement of your own beliefs because no one will possibly take you seriously when you adovcate such insanity.

and here i go, taking you seriously and responding ...

You hit the nail on the head of why Democrats might be losing. It truly IS their followers. I think that Kerry would've won if it weren't for supporters like this, seriously. Oh, and if he had actually seemed strong, and stood for something. It's not conservatives' fault that Kerry was weak.

I know many conservatives that would've LOVED and was PRAYING for someone else to vote for besides Bush.

Yes, keep on going, people like you, you will indeed only make things worse for yourself.

 

[U2_Guy]

its these kinds of thoughts that make life for us on the left very, very difficult. how could you ever expect to convince someone of the veracity of your arguments with such a silly scenario?

yes, Bush is bad. but comparing Bush to Osama Bin Laden is both incorrect, offensive, and ultimately destructive to the advancement of your own beliefs because no one will possibly take you seriously when you adovcate such insanity.

and here i go, taking you seriously and responding ...

See... the ppl who didn't vote for Bush are not that different from the Bush voters... even you who i read is gay and who must suffer like hell in the USA.

Bush is the leader of an army that killed thousands of innocents, who destroyed the life of others in the Iraq war. What for? Osama killed less ppl than Bush. That's how the row sees it. Make no mistake.

To your knowledge: the thought of Bush getting killed by Osama in the scenario i imagined is something that most ppl outside America thinks. They just don't have the guts to say.

But if that happens someday we will be really happy!

 

[U2_Guy]

Yes, keep on going, people like you, you will indeed only make things worse for yourself.

I'm not american. I'm not making anything hard or worse for me.

 

[U2Traveller]

I'm not american. I'm not making anything hard or worse for me.

That's not what you and every other non-American gushes. What we do affects YOU, you say.

 

[U2_Guy]

That's not what you and every other non-American gushes. What we do affects YOU, you say.

I have the freedom to say or think whatever i want. I don't vote in America. I don't have to "look good" for your conservative ppl.

Of course it affects the world, but the row can say or think what we want since we don't vote in the US.

If i was a democrat candidate in the US i'd act completely different. I'd give the conservatives what they want so when i'm elected i'd do what i real want. Ends justify the means in this case.

 

[Irvine511]

See... the ppl who didn't vote for Bush are not that different from the Bush voters... even you who i read is gay and who must suffer like hell in the USA.

Bush is the leader of an army that killed thousands of innocents, who destroyed the life of others in the Iraq war. What for? Osama killed less ppl than Bush. That's how the row sees it. Make no mistake.

To your knowledge: the thought of Bush getting killed by Osama in the scenario i imagined is something that most ppl outside America thinks. They just don't have the guts to say.

But if that happens someday we will be really happy!

actually, in major American coastal cities -- San Francisco, LA, NYC, Seattle, or Washington DC where i live -- you'll find the most vibrant, diverse gay culture on earth. and i say these even after spending lots of time in other wonderful cities like London, Paris, Amsterdam and Berlin. i'm not oppressed where i live; in DC we have wonderful domestic partnership laws. i don't suffer like hell, but those who live in places like Alabama, Utah, Mississippi, and now Ohio do suffer. true, we've mostly gone beyond gay bashing, but there's a concerted effort by many in the Christian community (of course not all, people, but let's look at the election results and returns) to delegate homosexuals to 2nd class citizen status. why they feel this need, i can't speak for.

and, i'm sorry, but there's a big difference between the invasion of Iraq and 9-11. one was an orgy of death, the other has seen lots of death, but you're kidding yourself if you say it's only about oil or conquest or whatever. while i disagreed with the invasion, and protested several times here in DC, the end goal -- the establishment of democracy in the Middle East -- was a good one. i just disagreed with the method because i don't think you can bomb people into democracy, and i think it's naive to believe that democracy will simply rise in a country with no history or tradition. this has nothign to do with a country being arab, or whatever, but everything to do with the fact that the Bush administration simply has a blinkered view of the rest of the world.

you also need to be careful about speaking for the "Rest of the World." i've spent lots of time abroad, and keep in touch with lots of friends from other countries, and not one of them shares your simplistic death-wish for Bush.

 

[U2Traveller]

I have the freedom to say or think whatever i want. I don't vote in America. I don't have to "look good" for your conservative ppl.

Of course it affects the world, but the row can say or think what we want since we don't vote in the US.

If i was a democrat candidate in the US i'd act completely different. I'd give the conservatives what they want so when i'm elected i'd do what i real want. Means justify the ends in this case.

What's row?

I'm just saying that people like you certainly DIDN'T help Kerry in this election. Yes, even people in other countries.

Now it's not such a big deal that it affects the rest of the world. Okay.

What would you REALLY want? Americans aren't stupid. They wouldn't have voted for you. They'd sniff you out. The thing is, you can't give conservatives what they want unless you're slightly conservative yourself. A conservative knows a conservative. No super-left person can dress in conservative clothing and not be detected, lol.

What am I talking about? I don't know.

The point is, you would never get elected. Bush didn't get elected because of liberals, that's for sure. Why do you think it'd be the other way around. Oh, that's right, because you think conservatives are dumb, but they're not....an liberals will never get anywhere with that view no matter WHERE they live.

Maybe the difference between conservatives and liberals is that conservatives are smarter and don't underestimate liberals.

 

[Irvine511]

and, finally, i hope the ROW doesn't give up on the US. we can and will change, this is a dynamic country filled with endless capacity for renewal.

and the biggest problems that afflict the earth right now -- Israel/Palestine, proliferation of nuclear weapons, and the global AIDS epidemic -- need MORE american involvement and leadership, not less. no, i don't think Bush is the man to do it, but we are the country that can make the greatest impact on all of these issues.

and i'll do my best, as a citizen, to make my country better. but this is a democracy, and the majority spoke. that's the beauty and the tragedy of the system.

 

[U2Traveller]

actually, in major American coastal cities -- San Francisco, LA, NYC, Seattle, or Washington DC where i live -- you'll find the most vibrant, diverse gay culture on earth. and i say these even after spending lots of time in other wonderful cities like London, Paris, Amsterdam and Berlin. i'm not oppressed where i live; in DC we have wonderful domestic partnership laws. i don't suffer like hell, but those who live in places like Alabama, Utah, Mississippi, and now Ohio do suffer. true, we've mostly gone beyond gay bashing, but there's a concerted effort by many in the Christian community (of course not all, people, but let's look at the election results and returns) to delegate homosexuals to 2nd class citizen status. why they feel this need, i can't speak for.

and, i'm sorry, but there's a big difference between the invasion of Iraq and 9-11. one was an orgy of death, the other has seen lots of death, but you're kidding yourself if you say it's only about oil or conquest or whatever. while i disagreed with the invasion, and protested several times here in DC, the end goal -- the establishment of democracy in the Middle East -- was a good one. i just disagreed with the method because i don't think you can bomb people into democracy, and i think it's naive to believe that democracy will simply rise in a country with no history or tradition. this has nothign to do with a country being arab, or whatever, but everything to do with the fact that the Bush administration simply has a blinkered view of the rest of the world.

you also need to be careful about speaking for the "Rest of the World." i've spent lots of time abroad, and keep in touch with lots of friends from other countries, and not one of them shares your simplistic death-wish for Bush.

I agree. Don't speak for the rest of the world, any of you, I know many non-Americans who don't feel as you do. I guess it's your way of trying to bully Americans.

As for you Irvine, I'm glad things are good for you. I really don't know what to think about this whole amendment thing. In fact, it really is quite appalling when you really look at it. I know I didn't like to see it.

 

[U2Traveller]

and, finally, i hope the ROW doesn't give up on the US. we can and will change, this is a dynamic country filled with endless capacity for renewal.

and the biggest problems that afflict the earth right now -- Israel/Palestine, proliferation of nuclear weapons, and the global AIDS epidemic -- need MORE american involvement and leadership, not less. no, i don't think Bush is the man to do it, but we are the country that can make the greatest impact on all of these issues.

and i'll do my best, as a citizen, to make my country better. but this is a democracy, and the majority spoke. that's the beauty and the tragedy of the system.

I agree...and what in the world is ROW?

I agree totally. That's how I feel.

 

[nbcrusader]

One of the best days in human history will be when Osama Bin Laden decides to drive alone his own plane in the direction of Bush's plane (with Dick aboard), kamikaze way.

It will be a moment of joy for human kind to get rid of Osama, Bush and Dick at the same time!

I think you have sunk to a new level.....

 

[Irvine511]

I agree...and what in the world is ROW?

I agree totally. That's how I feel.

R.O.W. -- Rest Of the World

 

[U2_Guy]

the end goal -- the establishment of democracy in the Middle East -- was a good one.

You can't force a country into democracy. Who says they want democracy? Those arab countries don't have the "democracy" background and the ones i talk don't even want it. Democracy is a relatively new thing and you can't force a whole ppl into it. Not even in a peaceful way.

Who gives the US the right to invade, to bomb countries and to force them into democracy?

On the other side, are you so naive to believe that what your country really wants is to "bring democracy" to those countries? HA HA HA. Why don't they do it in Africa? Cause Africa has no oil right? Nor they can control an estrategic country like Iraq cause they don't need estrategic positions in Africa.

 

[nbcrusader]

even you who i read is gay and who must suffer like hell in the USA.

Is there some mass exodus of gays that would support your statement?

 

[U2Traveller]

I don't see that gays are suffering. They have challenges in this world just like EVERYBODY ELSE!!!

If they're strong enough they can really challenge these amendments. I mean, it's not like they don't have resources. Here in Utah we're well aware that there will probably be some expensive court battles out of this.

 

[U2_Guy]

'Oh, merde!'"

In many languages, that was Europe's reaction to George W. Bush's victory: not quite shock and awe, perhaps, but fury, incomprehension and frustration, with muted cheers coming from only a few pro-Bush corners. If the result left America bitterly divided, it left Europe remarkably united — wondering why Americans would want another four years of a man whose words and deeds have alienated most of the U.S.'s allies.

No American election in living memory has riveted Europeans the way this one has, and that intense focus wasn't merely driven by hatred for Bush (though there is, of course, plenty of that to go around). Instead, Europe looked to this election to settle a deeper question: whether America itself had become an alien planet, one with values and perceptions so different from Europe's that the great postwar Atlantic alliance might never be repaired. By re-electing the President, even by such a slim margin, America has provided what many Europeans will take as definitive proof that the U.S. really is an incomprehensible place — and that the chasms and fights of the past several years are likely to continue. The President's win "erodes the view that one must distinguish between the disliked Bush Administration and the American society we've always loved," says André Kaspi, director of the Sorbonne's North American History Center.

Never mind that 55 million Americans voted to send Bush back to Texas. Never mind that of those who considered Iraq the country's most important issue, 74% voted for Kerry. The American conservatives — whose policies have helped push global attitudes toward the U.S. to an all-time low — have won again. To Europe, that suggests that the mutual disdain will continue, and that Europe and the U.S. are bound to drift further apart, even if their size and importance condemn them to keep doing business together. "There is in fact a certain degree of astonishment," says Gernot Erler, foreign-policy spokesman for Germany's ruling Social Democrats. "If a German Chancellor were to take the country to war on reasons that turned out to be wrong, he would have no chance of being re-elected." Says David Mepham, head of the international program at the Institute for Public Policy Research in London: "I think I'm going to be depressed for the next four years. Bush is going to feel like he has a mandate to do whatever he wants."

Can it really be so grim? Is there any chance Bush can return to his first-term pledge to be "a uniter, not a divider," even across the ocean? The good news — at least from Europe's viewpoint — is that Bush's second-term program may be chastened by his first-term failures. As long as American forces are bogged down in Iraq, the chance of further military action against Iran or Syria becomes more remote. Faced with a need for continued help in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, Washington may become better at asking than commanding.

 

[Irvine511]

You can't force a country into democracy. Who says they want democracy? Those arab countries don't have the "democracy" background and the ones i talk don't even want it. Democracy is a relatively new thing and you can't force a whole ppl into it. Not even in a peaceful way.

Who gives the US the right to invade, to bomb countries and to force them into democracy?

On the other side, are you so naive to believe that what your country really wants is to "bring democracy" to those countries? HA HA HA. Why don't they do it in Africa? Cause Africa has no oil right? Nor they can control an estrategic country like Iraq cause they don't need estrategic positions in Africa.

you're so cynical it's naive. and simplistic.

when countries embark on massive operations like the invasion of other countries, there are a MULTITUDE of factors and a MULTITUDE of goals and a MULTITUDE of considerations that go into the creation of policy. was securing one of the world's greatest oil producers one of those goals? yes. was trying to establish a democracy in the Middle East another one of those goals? yes. these things are not mutually exclusive, and you're naive and simplistic to think that there's only one reason behind something so big.

why not Africa? hey, i think it would be great, and i think that's what we should be doing, but states are not moral agents. no country on earth ever acts in a purely moral fashion, which is simply reality. every country in the history of the world does what is in their best interests first, and hopefully this is also the moral thing to do.

what gives the US the right? well, the ability to do so. what gave the Russians the right to invade Chechnya?

i admire your idealism, but think you need to do more reading.

though i agree -- you can't force a country into democracy.

 

[U2_Guy]

The President's win "erodes the view that one must distinguish between the disliked Bush Administration and the American society we've always loved," says André Kaspi, director of the Sorbonne's North American History Center.

 

[U2_Guy]

what gives the US the right? well, the ability to do so. what gave the Russians the right to invade Chechnya?

I ask you, according to your point of view: what gives terrorists the right to bomb America? Well, the ability to do so.

In my view, invading Iraq was as much a terrorist act as the 09/11 was.

 

[Irvine511]

Is there some mass exodus of gays that would support your statement?

many gay americans have moved to western europe and especially Canada where there is a much more overall tolerant climate and wonderful domestic partnership laws, if not outright marriage (Denmark, Belgium).

 

[U2Traveller]

I don't see how we're bitterly divided. Nope. Only a few of the extreme ones, but I live day by day by people who voted for Bush, we smile at each other, we like each other, we pass. Some are family and friends. Yes, Americans are "bitterly divided". I even saw one Ohio neighborhood, I think, who had opposite signs on all their lawns for their favorite candidates and they all got together in one house and had a party and watched the elections and walked away saying "we may think differently but we're still neighbors." Yes, we're bitterly divided.

It seems to me that the ROW and especially Europe are more divided than we are.

 

[nbcrusader]

I'd be interested to see data on that point.

 

[Irvine511]

I ask you, according to your point of view: what gives terrorists the right to bomb America? Well, the ability to do so.

In my view, invading Iraq was as much a terrorist act as the 09/11 was.

erm, everyone knew the invasion of Iraq was coming. it was discussed at the UN, Saddam Hussein was given ample warning, etc. this was a clear military maneuver of one state (the US) against another (Iraq).

9-11 came literally out of the blue and killed 3,000 people who simply got up and went to work that day.

there is a big difference, though at the end of the day, people are dead. but i do think the methods are important.

 

[U2_Guy]

I don't see how we're bitterly divided. Nope. Only a few of the extreme ones, but I live day by day by people who voted for Bush, we smile at each other, we like each other, we pass. Some are family and friends. Yes, Americans are "bitterly divided". I even saw one Ohio neighborhood, I think, who had opposite signs on all their lawns for their favorite candidates and they all got together in one house and had a party and watched the elections and walked away saying "we may think differently but we're still neighbors." Yes, we're bitterly divided.

It seems to me that the ROW and especially Europe are more divided than we are.

If the result left America bitterly divided, it left Europe remarkably united — wondering why Americans would want another four years of a man whose words and deeds have alienated most of the U.S.'s allies.

 

[U2Traveller]

I really hate anger and bigotry and hate. I really do. Why do non-Americans have it so much? Why? I guess because they're so oppressed.

Still, I hate anger, bigotry and hate. I hate it. I think it's noble to hate those things...the only good things to hate...that and sin.

Why oh why are you so full of hate? Why do you let yourselves be so full of hate.

I'm sure there are some non-Americans who don't. We will go on living and loving and NOT being divided because largely Americans LOVE each other. At least I do.

 

[U2_Guy]

erm, everyone knew the invasion of Iraq was coming. it was discussed at the UN, Saddam Hussein was given ample warning, etc. this was a clear military maneuver of one state (the US) against another (Iraq).

9-11 came literally out of the blue and killed 3,000 people who simply got up and went to work that day.

there is a big difference, though at the end of the day, people are dead. but i do think the methods are important.

Oh i c: if you warn ppl b4 that you gonna kill them its ok...

And my friend: the UN didn't allow the invasion. And if Hussein was ample warned he did what he had to do: nothing. CAUSE IT WAS PROVED THEY DIDN'T HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!