Post-election Commentaries, Thoughts

[Irvine511]

I only know possible theories but nothing concrete. From what I understand, people point to a combination of things from environment, genetics, etc... Reading some of the above posts people make it sound like its absolute truth that its "genetic" and I'd like to find out more about the smoking gun.

~note... I believe there maybe some genetic predisposition...

there's no definitive proof yet, but it is definitive that, no matter what, being gay is involuntary. therefore, to discriminate based upon something the person can do nothing about, and which harms no one, is morally wrong.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

being gay is involuntary = genetic... otherwise are people pressured into it? Somone put a gun to people's heads. That made no sense.... but don't worry, I rarely make any sense

 

[U2Traveller]

being gay is involuntary = genetic... otherwise are people pressured into it? Somone put a gun to people's heads. That made no sense.... but don't worry, I rarely make any sense

Don't feel bad. I've been accused of not making much sense in the past either.

I still think it's a choice. It's always a choice. Always. Exactly...is someone putting a gun to their head. I choose to breathe, and some would say that's natural...but I can hold my breath if I want. I could even suffocate myself.

 

[nbcrusader]

there's no definitive proof yet, but it is definitive that, no matter what, being gay is involuntary. therefore, to discriminate based upon something the person can do nothing about, and which harms no one, is morally wrong.

You forget the 70's when we were told it was a lifestyle choice.

 

[Irvine511]

being gay is involuntary = genetic... otherwise are people pressured into it? Somone put a gun to people's heads. That made no sense.... but don't worry, I rarely make any sense

please re-read. being gay is involuntary. no one chooses it. maybe it is 100% genetic. maybe it isn't. no one knows yet, and research is being done right now into that question. most scientists would argue that genetics play a very large part in determining sexual orientation.

the important thing to remember is this: you don't choose what turns you on. your body responds to a series of stimuli. there is no conscious choice involved in that response.

 

[U2Traveller]

please re-read. being gay is involuntary. no one chooses it. maybe it is 100% genetic. maybe it isn't. no one knows yet, and research is being done right now into that question. most scientists would argue that genetics play a very large part in determining sexual orientation.

the important thing to remember is this: you don't choose what turns you on. your body responds to a series of stimuli. there is no conscious choice involved in that response.

Being lazy, swearing, eating too much, being rude, stinking, addiction is natural, too, but some people choose to overcome it because it's a good thing to. Sometimes you have to overcome the natural man. Sometimes God asks us to. He gives us weaknesses to make us strong.

 

[BVS]

Religion is a choice. So is homosexuality. I was BORN LDS. But, I still have to choose it, believe me. It's not easy.

Anyway, I don't get your point. "If sexual attraction was a choice and there was no salvation or life altering decision to go along with why not just choice the other sex...no harm no foul and you get to save your life. So as I said before the analogy doesn't equate." You need to make yourself more clear.

Ok look this is the last time.

Religion is choice. With that choice comes your belief in salvation.

"I am a ______(fill in your religion) therefore I am saved."

Ok so this is a choice worth being persecuted for, due to the strong belief that when all is said and done your soul will be saved.

Ok so now let's say sexuality is a choice like you say it is.

Choice A: allows you the safety of being in a relationship where the rest of society allows you the right to get married. Also there is no persecution for this choice.

Choice B: no safety, not allowed to marry, people call you sinner and your life is at risk due to some bigot with anger issues.

Now keep in mind this is a choice according to you. Neither one of these choices come with a promise of salvation or any other reason to deal with persecution or to risk you life. Which choice looks more appealing to you?

Religion comes with a promise that is worth these persecutions.

Choosing an ice cream flavor doesn't. If sexuality was a choice it would be no different than choosing an ice cream flavor. Who do you know that would die over vanilla ice cream?!

It's also not like a drug. A drug offers you a high. Straight, gay they would just be flavors one doesn't offer you more than the other. So don't bring in the whole addiction thing.

The analogies don't work. They aren't all choices.

 

[Irvine511]

You forget the 70's when we were told it was a lifestyle choice.

yes, much psychological research from the 1970s has been tossed out the window. we've all evolved.

 

[nbcrusader]

the important thing to remember is this: you don't choose what turns you on. your body responds to a series of stimuli. there is no conscious choice involved in that response.

We have a number of involuntary responses to stimuli - how we react to the stimuli is a different story. I might find the company intern attractive, but acting on that stimuli is my conscious decision.

 

[Irvine511]

Being lazy, swearing, eating too much, being rude, stinking, addiction is natural, too, but some people choose to overcome it because it's a good thing to. Sometimes you have to overcome the natural man. Sometimes God asks us to. He gives us weaknesses to make us strong.

so choosing not to fall in love with someone, create my own family, and hopefully adopt a child is something god is asking me not to do?

it's awfully easy for someone who isn't homosexual to say, essentially, "get over it." i'd rather lead an authentic life, because i know i will be less of a human being and contribute less to the world should i embrace a lifestyle of inauthenticity, deception, and denial.

and i don't believe in your notions of god. i think the human need to put a human face and attributes, the idea that God "asks" anyone to do anything is amazingly self-centered.

 

[Irvine511]

We have a number of involuntary responses to stimuli - how we react to the stimuli is a different story. I might find the company intern attractive, but acting on that stimuli is my conscious decision.

yes, but you're not acting on a single instance. we're talking about *all* attraction that a homosexual feels. there are options for you beyond your company intern, there are no options for me beyond other homosexual members of my gender.

it's amazing how people can toss these ideas around -- just don't act on it! -- when they could never live taht way themselves.

 

[U2Traveller]

Ok look this is the last time.

Religion is choice. With that choice comes your belief in salvation.

"I am a ______(fill in your religion) therefore I am saved."

Ok so this is a choice worth being persecuted for, due to the strong belief that when all is said and done your soul will be saved.

Ok so now let's say sexuality is a choice like you say it is.

Choice A: allows you the safety of being in a relationship where the rest of society allows you the right to get married. Also there is no persecution for this choice.

Choice B: no safety, not allowed to marry, people call you sinner and your life is at risk due to some bigot with anger issues.

Now keep in mind this is a choice according to you. Neither one of these choices come with a promise of salvation or any other reason to deal with persecution or to risk you life. Which choice looks more appealing to you?

Religion comes with a promise that is worth these persecutions.

Choosing an ice cream flavor doesn't. If sexuality was a choice it would be no different than choosing an ice cream flavor. Who do you know that would die over vanilla ice cream?!

The analogy doesn't work. They are both not choices.

Just FYI, no one in my religion says "I am LDS, therefore I'm saved." That doesn't mean you're saved at ALL.

Umm, if I was a guy and I loved another guy I'd choose homosexuality still.

That's ridiculous. Believe me, it's not easy to choose my religion. You also have to believe it's all true. You have to believe that there's a better life for you if you live worthily. It's no easier, especially not when you are persecuted for your beliefs.

If a gay person believes in being gay strong enough because they love someone, or they just truly believe they're gay then they're going to choose it. It does something for them just like religion does something for those who choose it.

I really don't see the difference.

I think that they choose it because it makes them happy and feel good, at least at the moment, and that makes it worth it to them, just like with religious people.

It's not easier for a religious person like me in my religion to be religious than it is for a homosexual to be homosexual. And BOTH holds promise for these people or they wouldn't choose it.

 

[U2Traveller]

so choosing not to fall in love with someone, create my own family, and hopefully adopt a child is something god is asking me not to do?

it's awfully easy for someone who isn't homosexual to say, essentially, "get over it." i'd rather lead an authentic life, because i know i will be less of a human being and contribute less to the world should i embrace a lifestyle of inauthenticity, deception, and denial.

and i don't believe in your notions of god. i think the human need to put a human face and attributes, the idea that God "asks" anyone to do anything is amazingly self-centered.

God DOES have a human face.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

If I may be so bold nbc..I think perhaps it's entirely different to choose not to respond to an attraction to one human being as opposed to an entire gender. You are also married, so that would be a factor, due to your obvious love for your wife I don't mean to get personal, so I apologize for that

In other words, not acting on an attraction to that intern is the equivalent to gay people not acting on their attraction, or forcing themselves to be attracted to the opposite sex somehow? That just doesn't work for me, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Irvine511]

God DOES have a human face.

really? where? could you show it to me?

 

[BVS]

Just FYI, no one in my religion says "I am LDS, therefore I'm saved." That doesn't mean you're saved at ALL.

Umm, if I was a guy and I loved another guy I'd choose homosexuality still.

That's ridiculous. Believe me, it's not easy to choose my religion. You also have to believe it's all true. You have to believe that there's a better life for you if you live worthily. It's no easier, especially not when you are persecuted for your beliefs.

If a gay person believes in being gay strong enough because they love someone, or they just truly believe they're gay then they're going to choose it. It does something for them just like religion does something for those who choose it.

I really don't see the difference.

I think that they choose it because it makes them happy and feel good, at least at the moment, and that makes it worth it to them, just like with religious people.

It's not easier for a religious person like me in my religion to be religious than it is for a homosexual to be homosexual. And BOTH holds promise for these people or they wouldn't choose it.

Well you have no ability to even understand the simplist analogy so this discussion is useless.

 

[U2Traveller]

really? where? could you show it to me?

Some day you'll see it.

 

[Irvine511]

Some day you'll see it.

i don't believe that at all.

still, certainty has it's comforts i suppose.

 

[nbcrusader]

Just FYI, no one in my religion says "I am LDS, therefore I'm saved." That doesn't mean you're saved at ALL.

Really? That's too bad. But I guess we should save that topic for a different discussion.

 

[U2Traveller]

Really? That's too bad. But I guess we should save that topic for a different discussion.

I mean, that it still takes works. "Faith without works is dead."

 

[nbcrusader]

I am aware of the works doctrine

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is a gift from God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Some more interesting post-election news...

Aides: Ashcroft Likely to Leave AG Post

By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) is likely to leave his post before the start of President Bush (news - web sites)'s second term, senior aides said Thursday.




Ashcroft, 62, is described as exhausted from leading the Justice Department (news - web sites) in fighting the domestic war on terrorism since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Stress was a factor in Ashcroft's health problems earlier this year that resulted in removal of his gall bladder.


Ashcroft is expected to resign before Bush's Jan. 20 inauguration, said aides who spoke only on condition of anonymity. They said there is a small chance he would stay on, at least for a short time, if Bush asked him.


The attorney general has not officially informed his staff of his future plans, spokesman Mark Corallo said.


At a news conference, Bush said he hasn't made any decisions about his Cabinet.


Ashcroft, a former two-term governor and senator from Missouri, has long been a favorite among Bush's base of religious conservatives. He also is a lightning rod for Democrats and other critics on issues ranging from the anti-terrorism Patriot Act, which expanded rules for eavesdropping, to abortion rights and gun control.


Names that have been floated in recent weeks as a possible replacement include Ashcroft's former deputy, Larry Thompson, who would become the first black attorney general. Others include Marc Racicot, who was Bush's campaign manager, and White House general counsel Alberto Gonzales, who would give Bush a notable Hispanic appointment.


Also sometimes mentioned is former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani (news - web sites), but his spokeswoman said he's not interested. "Rudy Giuliani is not taking John Ashcroft's job," Sunny Mindel said.


Mindel said Giuliani is committed to the success of his business and government consulting firm.


Giuliani, a former prosecutor, is considered a possible presidential contender in 2008. Those political aspirations could be hampered by the controversies inherent in the top Justice Department job.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Well Giuliani doesn't want that thankless job so my bets are on Larry Thompson.

There goes an American patriot/ hero

 

[BVS]

Some good may come out of this afterall.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Already, Bush is bringing both sides together.... Viva la Bush!

 

[U2Traveller]

I am aware of the works doctrine

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is a gift from God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

Yes, but after ALL YOU CAN DO.

 

[U2Traveller]

Already, Bush is bringing both sides together.... Viva la Bush!

I hope so.

I hope this election really woke him up and made him see. I think that's what many people were after when they DID vote for him so strongly, and put Republicans so strongly in the house, etc., because they were saying, hey Bush, we want you, but wise up, we want to work together.

 

[Diemen]

I liked Bush's conference. He said some good things - it actually even gave me a little hope that things might be different than his first term. Now lets see if he follows through on his word.

And boy am I glad to see Ashcroft go. Any man who spends taxpayer's money to cover up a breast on a statue should not be in a position with that much power.

 

[nbcrusader]

Yes, but after ALL YOU CAN DO.

Where does it say that?

 

[BVS]

And boy am I glad to see Ashcroft go. Any man who spends taxpayer's money to cover up a breast on a statue should not be in a position with that much power.

The man honestly though calico cats were satanic.

The way I look at it, is the only way you can replace him with someone worse is if Jerry Faldwell or one of the Backstreet Boys took his place. Bush, please don't prove me wrong.