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Old 11-03-2004, 08:14 PM   #181
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You choose to laugh at the brutality of the Baathists, your morality is rather blinkered when it comes to Iraqi civilians. 16,000 killed in a war of liberation and its all cries and screams, 300,000 bodies with their skulls blown out are dug out of the desert sands and you cant seem to care.

Please download this file

http://www.aei.org/audioLib/20040618..._0.mpg.avi.mpg

and watch it, feel free to post the pictures of the many dead killed by the US but at least look at the other side of the coin. That regime was as brutal as the Nazi regime and the Soviet Union, the magnitude of the destruction was smaller but in brutality it matched it.

Dont you ever look away and excuse evil in the name of peace, to do so you would be a partner in the crime.

Peace of the Grave is all you will get by tollerating such evil.
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:18 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
You choose to laugh at the brutality of the Baathists, your morality is rather blinkered.

Please download this file

http://www.aei.org/audioLib/20040618..._0.mpg.avi.mpg

and watch it, feel free to post the pictures of the many dead killed by the US but at least look at the other side of the coin. That regime was as brutal as the Nazi regime and the Soviet Union, the magnitude of the destruction was smaller but in brutality it matched it.

Dont you ever look away and excuse evil in the name of peace.
You should try to be an american citizen. And you should join the US army to show how strong your convictions are in Iraq.
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:19 PM   #183
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


"It´s not pretty nor is it a good thing" is not enough
And yet, this is all we can do, because in some situations the consequences of all possible actions will be somewhat horrific.
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:20 PM   #184
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You should try to be an american citizen. And you should join the US army to show how strong your convictions are in Iraq.
Maybe you'd like to be a human shield?
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:21 PM   #185
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"It´s not pretty nor is it a good thing" is not enough, because you base your judgement solely on your intellect. Not your heart, and not your soul.
I'm kind of going to agree with hip hop but with a caveat.

A_Wanderer is actually somebody whose posts I love to read, for a number of reasons. I think he's a huge asset here, so this isn't a personal statement against him.

I think A_W, sometimes when I read your posts, you say "war is ugly, war is horrible", but you have not lived it, it is a statement you make based on what you see and what you read. I lived through a war, I was a refugee at the age of 11, I was separated from my family, only my brother and I (he was 8 at the time) were left together. We were hungry, we were scared, we lost people we knew, we were huddled in a 3x5 room with 4 other kids for days. You don't eat, you don't move, you don't piss and you don't sleep and it doesn't matter if you have to or if you're sick of it all. I've not slept properly in 14 years, and I'm one of the lucky ones. You have to understand that when the war is over, it took me every last bit of my humanity to get up in the morning and say, "I will be better than this." It is incredibly difficult to not say, I'll get a gun and go shoot back. It's incredibly difficult to go at night and pray for people who shot at you and I today wish them the very best. They were probably good people stuck in a terrible situation, and I hope that their children never go through what I went through. It takes everything you have to rise above it and join the world and function on a higher plane. And you NEVER, ever get over it, not until the day you die. It is with you, inside you. Sometimes you want to jump out of your skin so badly, you want to be somewhere, anywhere that isn't here.

War destroys people, it kills their souls and kills their spirits and very, very few of us lucky ones, for one reason or another end up functioning in the real world in a manner that you would never be able to tell our story. But we still carry it inside, every moment of every day.

War is hell. War is an event where rich people get richer and poor people die. And if you've lived it, for just one moment as a civilian with no guilt, your heart breaks into a million pieces when you see it happening anywhere in the world.

That is why I oppose GWB. He doesn't know war, he doesn't know what sacrifice is, and he doesn't know hell. He gets to fall asleep tonight, and I lie there awake until 3.
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:25 PM   #186
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Maybe you'd like to be a human shield?
If i had the chance to defend the ones i love i'd be a shield for them. Not to ppl i dunno. I don't want to be a hero for strangers. Only to the ppl who are close to me and for whom i care.

The best and most efficient way for me to be a "human shield" would be voting for anyone but that monkey Bush. But i don't vote in America...
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:28 PM   #187
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Originally posted by U2_Guy


If i had the chance to defend the ones i love i'd be a shield for them. Not to ppl i dunno. I don't want to be a hero for strangers. Only to the ppl who are close to me and for whom i care.

In other words, your concern for the people of Iraq is just as abstract as everyone else's.
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:31 PM   #188
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In other words, your concern for the people of Iraq is just as abstract as everyone else's.
I don't think you get what i'm saying (what a surprise...)

I do care about the poor ppl in Iraq as much as any good person would.

If i'm not planning to be a "human shield" for them that doesn't mean i don't care for them... Don't be a maniqueist child...

And if i had the chance to rearrange things in Iraq i'd start by voting for Kerry. That would be the only thing i could do.
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:32 PM   #189
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You are absolutely right Anitram, I have no experience on such matters nor do I claim to, or that war is glorious and idealized or that it makes peoples lives better and is a good thing but from that position, without the experience of suffering and knowing how good my life is away from the violence, just looking at figures; a case can be made (I just got a little hot under the collar when someone excused the brutality of the Baathists, that is not an anti-war position that is pro-Dictator), and it is a very difficult thing to do, I hope that I have at least contributed somewhat here because I am often in the unenviable position of trying to advocate things that I am personally against but will to maintain a consistent line of argument.

I would not ever want the decision to go to war or not to rest on my shoulders, that burden would be too hard to bear.
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:35 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2_Guy


I don't think you get what i'm saying (what a surprise...)

I do care about the poor ppl in Iraq as much as any good person would.

If i'm not planning to be a "human shield" for them that doesn't mean i don't care for them... Don't be a maniqueist child...

And if i had the chance to rearrange things in Iraq i'd start by voting for Kerry. That would be the only thing i could do.
By symmetry, your challenge to A_Wanderer to join the US Army was total garbage as well.
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:38 PM   #191
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By symmetry, your challenge to A_Wanderer to join the US Army was total garbage as well.
No my son... this guy A wanderer have been deffending wars and Bush like his life depended on it.

I'm not deffending here Sadaam. I'm just saying that if A Wanderer likes to talk so much about how wars are needed sometimes (something you can never say without real life experience on the issue like Anitram brilliant said), he should go to Iraq and see if his convictions will be the same...
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:41 PM   #192
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Now i have to sleep (it's 2:41 here) and maybe i'll dream of a peaceful world tonight (how corny is that huh...hehe)

Good nite kids...
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:43 PM   #193
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Originally posted by U2_Guy


No my son... this guy A wanderer have been deffending wars and Bush like his life depended on it.

I'm not deffending here Sadaam. I'm just saying that if A Wanderer likes to talk so much about how wars are needed sometimes (something you can never say without real life experience on the issue like Anitram brilliant said), he should go to Iraq and see if his convictions will be the same...
Ah yes. Attack the debater, not the argument. Classic technique.

You know, there are soldiers and veterans around the world who believe the mission in Iraq is just as well.
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:46 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
You choose to laugh at the brutality of the Baathists

Dont you ever look away and excuse evil in the name of peace, to do so you would be a partner in the crime.

Peace of the Grave is all you will get by tollerating such evil.
No, I am not laughing at the brutality of Baathists.

I am just looking at the other side of the coin from a different perspective. Like I said, this is not about taking sides. This is about cruelty and evil itself.

I am not excusing evil in the name of peace. I stand for peace, not for evil. For peace, without taking sides. I don´t believe that war brings peace. Even when the flames are all long gone, the pain lingers on (quoting Waters there). For generations, and generations.

What do you know about pain?

I know enough about the horror to condemn the leader of the so-called free world. Sure, Saddam was a cruel dictator, and sure, some Iraqis are happy he is removed, others obviously are not.

But the principles of good vs. evil are NOT about who is the better political leader. Whoever has blood on his hands, shall be burning in hell, according to my belief.

This is why admiration and dancing and smiling for a man who is ultimately responsible for much, much, much pain - more pain than we all can imagine - makes me sick.

I guess we will continue to disagree, because my perspective is different from yours. In some twisted way, you think war brings peace, and kind of wipes away pain, probably with a big bomb. In some twisted way, you think you can add and substract victims, to calculate numbers, like a mad army general.

I don´t buy that.

However, the whole discussion started because some are partying and hailing and dancing, because Bush is back in office.

What do you know about pain?

I wanted to make you think about that a second time.

Obviously, I have succeeded.

Don´t ever forget that.

Thank you.
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Old 11-03-2004, 08:51 PM   #195
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Speaking as an ex combat officer in the US Army, I have to say I agree and disagree with a lot of what is said here. On one side, war is never desirable. You will never forget anything you see. It is horrible. On the other side, there seems to be a rationale that war is never justified. There also seems to be a notion that others don't deserve freedom if there is a cost associated to it. I for one have grown increasingly angered at the UN for utterly failing to support the rights and freedoms of ALL people on this planet. You either choose to act or not. There are consequences to either.
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