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Old 04-05-2003, 12:59 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Well, we as (relatively) affluent Catholics in the first world, with an access to the best universities and so on can sit here and blast the Vatican, as we should. But you have to remember that the majority of the world's Catholics are dirt poor, uneducated people, who are more concerned with a million things other than what the Pope says about homosexuals or war on any given day.

and I think uneducated people are more likely to take the Pope's word as the gospel, so to speak
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Old 04-05-2003, 07:10 AM   #32
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The Wanderer:

The pope did support Reagans political course, (because of that?) his word was well respected by american conservatives.

melon:
I guess it's unnecessary to bash the pope like that - you are smart enough and can do it in a more intelligent way.

I'm no fan of the pope, i'm not catholic and because of that i don't accept the pope as the head of all christs, i think some of his words are blasphemy, but still i think there are some good thing the pope does, of course some bad things either.. and lots of awful things his organisation did in history.

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Old 04-05-2003, 10:53 AM   #33
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The Klaus, I dont think they ever respected him, I think it was useful and convenient for them to acknowledge his opinion at the time
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Old 04-06-2003, 01:34 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
i think some of his words are blasphemy, but still i think there are some good thing the pope does, of course some bad things either.. and lots of awful things his organisation did in history.

Klaus

I don't think it should ever be "acceptable" that the Pope is saying blasphemous things......and it certainly shouldn't be counterbalanced with "he does good things sometimes."
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Old 04-06-2003, 03:38 PM   #35
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Lilly:
well from my point of view he does, but (instead of the katholic church) i don't think i'm the judge about that

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Old 04-06-2003, 04:32 PM   #36
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Klaus:

agreed, most definately.

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Old 04-10-2003, 10:40 PM   #37
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I don't see what is so offensive about this thread; the Wanderer is just pointing out the double edged sword of double standards; we all have them, even the Pope. I bet if the Pope supported this war, many of the anti-war folks would be saying "disresepctful" things about him.

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Old 04-20-2003, 08:21 PM   #38
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I am a Catholic who has views similar to anitram's and letbetty's. There's not a blasted thing we can do to change the institutional church. It's a dinosaur in alot of ways. Its handling of the sexual abuse scandal was typical. They tried to sweep it under the rug. Fortunately angry victims didn't shut up and they were not able to keep it under the rug. Don't think we don't get mad about stuff the institution does. I've cancelled my membership in Catholic listservers to protest homophobia and other evils. Yeah, I get pretty angry about this stuff.
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Old 04-22-2003, 07:54 PM   #39
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I have been hesitant to reply to this thread as I have been trying to formulate an answer that is not offensive and acceptable on some level, but I'm afraid that in this case I will come out looking rather unpleasant.

Do I agree with the Pope's stance on Iraq? Yes, I do. We've been here before, but I opposed this war vehemently.

Do I agree with his stance on homosexuals' rights? No, I do not. I have always maintained and believed that the Catholic Church (and as a Catholic, albeit a bad one, I do think myself sufficiently qualified to comment) is greviously wrong in pursuing what can only be described as an oppresive and elitist doctrine. I have called it many things, from fascist to evil, from hypcritical to callous, however, I am hesitant to condem the Catholic Church and doctrine and curse at the Pope.

The pope is a mere man, and like any man, he has his own agenda and the agenda of the Church to comply with. I too have my own agenda, and so does everyone else. I do not believe that all homophobia can be attributed to th Catholic church, just as I believe that not all (if any) anti-war sentiments can be attributed to the Catholic church; the amount of people who believe that what the Pope says is the gospel truth and will go along with it whole-heartedly, in Educated circles at least, is almost as disparate as those who believe that what the President says is the gospel truth and will go along with it whole-heartedly. Having said that, I believe that most people in FYM believe in what they believe because their own views and code tells them to, not because President Bush or the Pope tells them to. Optimistically, I believe this is a reflection of 'most' of the world.

I don't believe that the Catholic church is singularly guilty of homophobia. Why stop there? Virtually every religion in some way has been or still is homophobic. The next obvious one is the Islamic doctrine, or the way it has been implemented, which prescribes a fate worse than excommunication. I don't believe that those who are Catholics should abandon catholicism just because the Pope condemns homosexuality, a person should believe in more than just what one person says, and that is mere common sense.

For many people, Catholicism does not represent homophobia, it represents a way of life, a path to God, and what the Pope says has very little importance for them.

Incidentally, in my failed campaign against this nonsensical war, I have never used the Pope's stance as a way of fortifying or justifying my own views; I stopped listening to the Pope a long time ago.

Ant.
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Old 04-22-2003, 08:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony

I don't believe that the Catholic church is singularly guilty of homophobia. Why stop there? Virtually every religion in some way has been or still is homophobic. The next obvious one is the Islamic doctrine, or the way it has been implemented, which prescribes a fate worse than excommunication. I don't believe that those who are Catholics should abandon catholicism just because the Pope condemns homosexuality, a person should believe in more than just what one person says, and that is mere common sense.

For many people, Catholicism does not represent homophobia, it represents a way of life, a path to God, and what the Pope says has very little importance for them.

Incidentally, in my failed campaign against this nonsensical war, I have never used the Pope's stance as a way of fortifying or justifying my own views; I stopped listening to the Pope a long time ago.

Ant.

My sentiments exactly. Excellent post, Anthony.
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