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Old 04-04-2003, 03:27 PM   #16
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Out of curiosity, how do you distinguish between binding and non-binding Papal statements?

"Make love not war" is a binding one, taking into consideration that Jesus said "Love your enemies". Right?
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Old 04-04-2003, 05:15 PM   #17
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
It would be interesting if it changes the mind of any pro-war Christian that the Pope is against the war.

What is more important? Following the leader of the Christians or following the leader of the free world?

Following the Pope or the U.S. government?
I'm a Christian and I don't give jack crap about the Pope's view on this war or anything else. He's just a man just like any other man. He's not my leader. Christ is my Lord, not the Pope.
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Old 04-04-2003, 05:17 PM   #18
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lovely 80s.
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Old 04-04-2003, 05:21 PM   #19
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A section on "Homosexuality and Homophobia" says homosexuality stems from an "unresolved psychological conflict."

It says that those who want to give homosexuals the same legal rights in society "deny a psychological problem which makes homosexuality against the social fabric."
Since someone else decided to bring this topic up...

[RANT]

I've been so mad that I've been fuming all week. The Pope and the entire Vatican can fucking rot in hell. The entire Vatican is populated by a bunch of condescending, worldly hypocrites that haven't been in touch with their followers since the time of St. Paul. Homosexuals are the scapegoats for everything to these fucking bigots.

What makes me angrier is that Catholics just merely sit back and take all this abuse; bitching in private, but still sitting gleefully in the pews, throwing their money in the collection plate. It seems like the only thing that can even mildly motivate Catholics to revolt is when children are molested--and, mind you, the Vatican blames homosexuals for that, as well, despite the fact that many of us are equally disgusted. It doesn't matter. Cardinal fucking Ratzinger (head of the Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith [?], modern-day Inquisition) doesn't fucking care. He's been demonizing homosexuals since the 1980s.

Fuck the Pope. Fuck the Vatican. I will no longer sit back and support this organization, and I suggest that all intelligent, rational Catholics abandon this futile institution as well. Yes, my dear Interferencers, there is a difference between the faith, which I still believe in, and the institution, which I loathe as much as Satan himself.

I hope molestation victims bankrupt the Church and imprison all the clergy for obstruction of justice.

[/RANT]

I hope no one takes this personally. It is not my intention to offend anyone.

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Old 04-04-2003, 05:22 PM   #20
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I'm a Christian and I don't give jack crap about the Pope's view on this war or anything else. He's just a man just like any other man. He's not my leader. Christ is my Lord, not the Pope.
Amen!

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Old 04-04-2003, 05:25 PM   #21
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Originally posted by melon




[RANT]

I've been so mad that I've been fuming all week. The Pope and the entire Vatican can fucking rot in hell. The entire Vatican is populated by a bunch of condescending, worldly hypocrites that haven't been in touch with their followers since the time of St. Paul. Homosexuals are the scapegoats for everything to these fucking bigots.

What makes me angrier is that Catholics just merely sit back and take all this abuse; bitching in private, but still sitting gleefully in the pews, throwing their money in the collection plate. It seems like the only thing that can even mildly motivate Catholics to revolt is when children are molested--and, mind you, the Vatican blames homosexuals for that, as well, despite the fact that many of us are equally disgusted. It doesn't matter. Cardinal fucking Ratzinger (head of the Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith [?], modern-day Inquisition) doesn't fucking care. He's been demonizing homosexuals since the 1980s.

Fuck the Pope. Fuck the Vatican. I will no longer sit back and support this organization, and I suggest that all intelligent, rational Catholics abandon this futile institution as well. Yes, my dear Interferencers, there is a difference between the faith, which I still believe in, and the institution, which I loathe as much as Satan himself.

I hope molestation victims bankrupt the Church and imprison all the clergy for obstruction of justice.

[/RANT]

I hope no one takes this personally. It is not my intention to offend anyone.

Melon

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Old 04-04-2003, 05:28 PM   #22
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Originally posted by The Wanderer
just wondered if maybe the Pope wouldn't mind a war on gays? but then I remembered how compassionate his Holiness is for all human life!
His Evilness thinks that gay rights is part of the "culture of death." So, by his logic, being homophobic is being pro-life. The Church has thought of everything; I've studied all of it.

The Vatican is the master of pseudointellectualism. The idea, of course, is to craft documents so full of big words and double-speak as to confuse the Catholic into complacency.

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Old 04-04-2003, 05:41 PM   #23
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melon, I think that the money donated to the Church also pays for a lot of good things. Not to mention the Church is rich enough and everything, I am with you, melon - but don´t underestimate the little communities.

You are right about the Catholics, though, they could and should change the church. But I have the feeling it is not that easy. The Church has projects about everywhere on the whole planet earth, and it is not a state or a political entity. Lots of things are wrong, and I would like to have them changed today, not tomorrow. On the other hand, why should the Church be flexible? It is not part of the modern, flexible, changing world we live in.

Don´t get me wrong, I am with you on this one- but take the above points into consideration too.

Its not only about females for priests, homosexuality, financial scandals, child molestation. You could also ask why the Catholic Church doesn´t forbid bullfights in Spain (many very conservative Catholics there who maybe would listen to what the Pope has to say).

On the other hand again, take the many many Christians into account who work to help the poor. Take missionaries. I have met a missionary who could have worked in the Vatican. He didn´t take the chance, when he had finished a project in Africa, but went on to Estonia.

It is not easy to argument about one billion of Christians. In my opinion, you have to think seperately about all those issues. Many issues are handled in an old, bad, middle age - way; some others are handled great.
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Old 04-04-2003, 05:43 PM   #24
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Old 04-04-2003, 06:04 PM   #25
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You know, for years, I spoke just like you did there. But I can no longer. This is not about making the church "flexible." It is about making the Church accountable for being bigoted.

Over the past decade, I'm sure you have heard of the Marian apparitions. I'm reminded of what I read about them in the mid-1990s: at "the end," the Church will collapse and rebuild. Supposedly, the death of JP II will be the beginning of "the end," but I see it already. I have questioned his fitness for the Papacy ever since 1998, when he let Coca-Cola sponsor his visit in Mexico City.

Simultaneously, I worry about the rise of Opus Dei, an ultra-conservative movement within the Church that has been labelled a cult, and with good reason. It treats women terribly, it believes in self-inflicted physical abuse for "atonement," and, in most extreme cases, its members live in compounds and sign away their possessions and inheritance to the group after seven years. Read more at http://www.odan.org/ . But what is most worrisome? Opus Dei is not only applauded by the Vatican; most all the Pope's inner-circle is Opus Dei. It's no wonder they hate liberals as they do, and I predict that the next Pope will be even more hateful than JP II. Most interestingly, the apparitions state that the next Pope will be evil, but I do take these with a grain of salt currently.

But I cannot support this institution any longer. What they say about homosexuals is not about "flexibility" at all. It is about the fact that what they say are utter lies. Reverting to calling homosexuality an "unresolved psychological conflict" goes against decades of research stating the opposite. In fact, new research seems to be pointing to hormonal changes in-utero to cause homosexuality--which would explain why there will never be a "gay gene," but making it just as biologically oriented. To those who don't understand what I'm talking about here, I would suggest looking at a college-level genetics text.

I am an intelligent, rational human being that deserves far better than an autocratic, sexist, and homophobic religion that also has a secret disdain for secular, democratic governments (it wants all governments to legislate its morality).

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Old 04-04-2003, 06:16 PM   #26
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Well, yeah, you´re right.

Especially with the collapse of the church. The problem is that the Vatican doesn´t make a change. I am sure the Vatican has realized the large number of Christians who go out of church because they can´t take all the lying thats going on.

Anyway, I think this is calculated. The Vatican may not care that much about the people, given all the mistakes they continue to make. It won´t cost them much, though. They are really full of money, you know. They won´t care if tens of thousands (officially) leave church - in first world countries, where people have an idea about what "liberal" means. Note that in third world countries, there will not be many people who leave the church. What assistance will be given to them? How can the little communities here influence the policies there?

You know, I am the last one to defend the Vatican. I have stopped to believe in the Pope when John XXIII was killed (wasn´t born and therefore not a Christian yet).
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Old 04-04-2003, 07:45 PM   #27
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the Pope has quite a bit of influence in the world; I think this is relevant. does it make this or any other war right? does it make it wrong? certainly not based on what comes out of the Vatican...
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Old 04-04-2003, 07:56 PM   #28
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Well, we as (relatively) affluent Catholics in the first world, with an access to the best universities and so on can sit here and blast the Vatican, as we should. But you have to remember that the majority of the world's Catholics are dirt poor, uneducated people, who are more concerned with a million things other than what the Pope says about homosexuals or war on any given day.

In any case, I have argued for some time now that it is JP's turn to go, he's turned into a crusty old man who is positively spiteful when it comes to certain issues, and sounds like he's partially lost it. Not to say that he's the only one in the higher hierarchy in Vatican to hold ignorant views.

Yes, the so-called leadership of the Catholic Church needs to be revamped, but I don't believe it will happen until this Pope is gone. And even then, who knows.
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Old 04-04-2003, 10:37 PM   #29
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As a Catholic myself, I tend to lean toward melon's views, but I have always felt like the 'institution' is a dead hand upon the faith. By the standards of the Vatican, there possibly aren't that many 'good' Catholics, at least not in the first world. As for the Pope himself, the situation is beyond tragic. He's a sick old man, practically dead. He should have gone years ago. I believe that as a younger man he was, at least in some respects, a force for good, but I doubt how much influence he even has nowadays. Not so much 'influential' as 'influenced' by those who have his ear.

At the most simplistic level, I mostly just ignore the institutional church.

All that said, the Pope has every right to speak out on the war, and his statements may well have merit (I didn't bother reading them) on their own. Of course this is a nice little game, as I tend to think Wanderer just started this thread as another little wedge against people who think the war is wrong, not dissimilar to 'Martin Luther King claims to be a man of peace but is also a womaniser and a communist'.
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Old 04-04-2003, 10:53 PM   #30
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So who´s gonna be the next Pope, what about the opinion of the "official" catholic church about the war except for the Pope, and which direction will the Vatican take?

From http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/2002Feb/feb18bat.htm

For years talk has circulated about another Council to even further modernize the post-conciliar church. Yet blind-conservatives hold out hope that everything will 'work out fine in the end.' Even with the retirement of progressivist Cardinal Martini, the main advocate of a new council, don't think the situation will shift to a better path.

A few weeks before he celebrated his 75th birthday, Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, Archbishop of Milan, announced that he will retire due to his revelation to the public that he has Parkinson's disease. With his retirement, a strong voice for the progressivist movement leaves a void...or does it? Many believe he will be just as influential in retirement as he has been until now. His influence has deep roots in progressivist circles and it brings to mind an article I wrote a few years ago.

Indeed, it was a few years ago that a friend arrived in Los Angeles at 2 a.m. on a "red-eye special" night flight. Since I was still not accustomed to the highways here at that time, I thought it more prudent to allow plenty of time for error. Fortunately I had no problems. Thus I found myself at the airport at a quarter to one in the morning. I had an hour and fifteen minute wait before I would have the pleasure of seeing my friend. The airport lobby was almost empty. The janitors moved the groups of seats back and forth, vacuuming, cleaning, polishing. After I had established a "cordiale entente" between their indispensable work and my own need for a seat, I went to the reading material I had brought with me. It was the Bulletin Adista, an intelligent publication from Rome that keeps me informed on the more daring and up-to-date news in Catholic progressivism.

Among other news, I read that a meeting of the World Congress of Married Priests took place in Atlanta, Georgia (July 28-August 1, 1999). Emory University hosted the event that gathered together 330 participants from 17 countries around the world. The meeting produced a final document that had some especially interesting demands. I offer the excerpt to my reader:

"In the spirit of the first Council of Jerusalem and of Vatican Council II and in response to the signs of the times, the participants of this meeting are asking for a radical change in the exercise of pastoral leadership. We are making an appeal to the Pope to renounce the practice of naming the Bishops and to restore this to the local communities … And we are requesting the convocation of a universal council of all the Christian confessions in order to review themes such as the primacy, infallibility, collegiality, the ministry, sexuality, social and ecclesial justice, just as the secretary general of the World Council of Churches [Konrad Raiser] has also recently requested." (Adista, September 20, 1999)

I thought to myself: Is this the same request for a panreligious council that the Protestant pastor Konrad Raiser made some time ago and that I commented on in my work "Quo vadis, Petre?" I remember that I also quoted the yearnings of Cardinal Leo Joseph Suenens for a new council in Jerusalem or the Vatican, as well as statements of Archbishop John Quinn. Therefore, the plea from the Congress of Married Priests seemed an updated re-run of the same progressivist picture. It also raised a suspicion in me that those who control the "master plan" of religious politics were launching another "trial balloon" to test the reactions of Catholic public opinion and see if it were ready to "swallow" a council of this nature. I was thinking about this when the airplane of my friend arrived punctually at 2 a.m. I welcomed my friend and returned to my apartment still thinking about the matter.

The October 8 edition of the National Catholic Reporter featured an interview with Cardinal Franz König. The reader will recall that König, the former Cardinal of Vienna, can be defined as the protagonist of three principal actions:

1. He was the first harbinger of Ostpolitik, and had already been in contact with communist governments before Vatican II officially inaugurated this policy.

2. Along with this title - collaborator with the communists - he was the anti-Mindszenty symbol. In effect, the heroic Primate of Hungary had been held voluntarily under house arrest in the North American Embassy in Budapest since 1956, in order to protest the communist take-over of his Country. It was König who went to Cardinal Mindszenty in the name of Paul VI to prohibit him from leaving the Embassy to enter the streets of Budapest for a new and spectacular protest that he was planning against communism. On that occasion, Mindszenty was "invited" to move to Rome where he remained enclosed in a tower. After some months, he left the tower unexpectedly and returned to Vienna to exert his influence on the Hungarian world from there as best he could. Shortly after, Cardinal Mindszenty died.

3. In the conclave that met after the death of Pope John Paul I, it was König who proposed as candidate the Cardinal of Krakow, Karol Woytyla, and worked to gain the votes necessary for his election.

A few years ago, the same König, (now 97) still as lucid as ever, told the press that for the next Pope "the most important issue will be to find someone who will decentralize the government of the Church." The reporter asked, "Where would he start?" The Cardinal responded: "Bishops' Conferences should have more responsibility." We are facing the same demand made by the Congress of Married Priests: to reform the pontifical primacy, and to stimulate the collegiality of Bishops.

The repetition of the same request - this time not made by radical grassroots progressivists but by a highly qualified dignitary like König - added a new dimension and timeliness to the proposal.

After this, I received yet another two confirmations in the same sense. One came from the extreme radical left - the We Are Church (WAC) movement. The other came from the official ecclesiastical left - Cardinal Martini.

A dispatch from the Catholic World News Service about WAC and the European Synod that was taking place at the Vatican reported the event. The reader could see the more interesting parts:

"The international movement of Catholic dissidents entitled We Are Church has organized a 'shadow synod' in Rome during the month of October, calling for radical changes in Church teaching and discipline, and protesting the 'exclusion of the laity' from the European Synod. We Are Church has brought 120 participants to Santa Severa, just outside Rome, for a conference designed to encourage 'bold reforms in the structures of the Church and of the decisions which cause suffering for a number of Christians.' Among the 'reforms' put forward by We Are Church was the establishment of a permanent 'synod of the churches' to govern Catholicism as a 'permanent council' whose powers would be 'not only consultative but decisive.'"

A more egalitarian and more "collegial" structure in the Church is the foundation of the demands of WAC. The notion of a "permanent council" obviously supposes the prior realization of a new council. We are again seeing the same picture as the one presented by the Married Priests, Cardinal Suenens, Archbishop Quinn and pastor Raiser.

Cardinal Martini, Archbishop of Milan, well known for his progressivist positions, added his voice to the choir. Catholic World News Service reported:

"Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini of Milan told the Synod of European bishops that the Church should look for 'newer and more extensive experiences of collegiality.' Cardinal Martini said that bishops should work closely together to confront contemporary problems …. The Italian newspaper, 'Il Messaggero,' in its October 8 edition, reported that Cardinal Martini was actually making a 'surprise request' for a new Church council. 'Il Messaggero' …. said, the subtle message of Cardinal Martini's intervention was an 'unequivocal' demand for a new council of the world's bishops."

From the experience I have in the analysis of ecclesiastical affairs, it seems to me that when there are two highly qualified Cardinals - König and Martini - speaking in the same sense, very probably there is a plan that is prepared to be executed. In addition to this, when the same idea is corroborated by the "demands" of two radical movements, it seems that an attempt is being made to "sound out" Catholic public opinion in order to, very possibly, convoke the desired council. Even with their ages, these two Prelates still have an enormous amount of influence amongst the progressivists.

The facts appear to speak strongly in favor of the veracity of this hypothesis. Even more so when one considers the events that have transpired since I wrote the aforementioned article. It seems that the persons who really direct the Church are still preparing some great surprise. If the hypothesis for another council is true, the only thing that would still remain to be decided would be in which city the panreligious council would take place: the Vatican or Jerusalem? Given the lack of outrage from the Catholic public after the most recent bizarre events in Assisi, what is there to stop the progressivist advance?

http://www.jesuits-europe.org/ns/news.htm#0327


Jerusalem, 26 March (VID) – War, this war, is the “negation” of humanity, says Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, S.J., ex-Archbishop of Milan in an interview on Vatican Radio.

For the second time in six months Cardinal Martini has decided to break his silence. A few weeks ago he published an article against the war in the “L’Osservatore Romano” and now via a radio interview he again has expressed his thoughts on the conflict which is being fought in Iraq.

“Unfortunately the Pope had warned us many times in the weeks and months that have passed,” he pointed out, “about the disasters of a war and now we are experiencing day after day what could have been foreseen, that is disasters, dead, wounded, prisoners, bombings, cities on fire. Frightening things. We are aware that we are facing something that negates all that humanity should or wants to be.”

“For Christians, this is a moment of intensification of prayer, so that the Lord may grant the gift of peace. It is not enough, in fact, to be against the war – everyone is against the war – but it is necessary to be against the war in such a way that you desire that peace which makes those sacrifices, performs those acts of good will for all, that unfortunately were not done. ... Peace demands sacrifices, renouncement, the capacity to meet another half way, the ability to present things as they really are. We must work for a peace that is sincere, coherent and honest. For this type of peace, the politicians will certainly do all they can but each one of us is called to find inside ourselves that honesty, that coherence, which united with that of many others, can prepare for peace, because peace is always possible and we hope that it may be even close.”

Rome, 21 March 2003 – In a statement sent to Jesuits all over the world, Fr Lluis Magrina, International Director of the Jesuit Refugee Service expresses his concern about the humanitarian consequences of the war in Iraq. "Iraqi civilians are almost totally dependent on government food rations and this has made them extremely vulnerable to military action. Furthermore, the children of Iraq are much more vulnerable to war today than they were in 1991", he argues. He gives also his full support to the statement already issued by the Jesuit Social Secretariat in Rome which asked whether a war in Iraq is in fact justifiable.

Although JRS does not plan to participate directly in providing humanitarian relief in the proposed camps on the border between Iran and Iraq or in Iraq itself the JRS offices will obviously have to play their part, in the event of temporary or other forms of protection in Europe, either in direct assistance to refugees or in providing assistance to other NGOs involved in this work. The situation is also expected to impact on the accession and candidate countries to the EU.

Vatican City, 19 March (VID) – Do not pretend to act in the name of God, comments Fr. Pasquale Borgomeo, S.J., General Director of Vatican Radio, speaking of ultimatum given by President Bush to Iraq.

“If those responsible for the decision to start the war believe in conscience that they have to make such a decision, let them know that they will have to account for it before God, before the international community and one day, before the judgment of history. Let them therefore avoid thinking they are on a mission of salvation and not pretend to act in our name.”, Fr Borgomeo said. And he added: “’Not in my name’ we’ve read on the badges of many demonstrators against the war. Not in our name, not in the name of the values of western society and above all not in the Holy Name of God.”

Washington, 18 March 2003 -- As the U.S. prepares for war, America, the national Catholic weekly magazine, is publishing an editorial against the war along with an article in favour of the war by George Weigel in its March 31st issue.

In its editorial "God or Country", America, agreeing with Pope John Paul II, argues that "war against Iraq would be arrogant, unnecessary and foolish. Arrogant, because the administration has been disdainful of world opinion, discounted the effectiveness and potential of alternative approaches to containment and from the beginning proclaimed its intention to act unilaterally in world affairs. Unnecessary, because containment has worked and can be made to work more effectively. Foolish, because the government either ignores much greater threats from North Korea and Pakistan or, it would seem, has positioned itself for a succession of pre-emptive wars against 'the axis of evil'."

America applauds John Paul II "for the prophetic role he has taken in opposing this war. He is to be thanked for taking diplomatic initiatives to encourage Iraqi disarmament and to forestall the American government’s resort to war... War against Iraq will be a defeat for U.S. security. It will promote, rather than curb, proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. It has led already to the fraying of alliances. It will intensify anti-Americanism abroad and with it the terrorist threat. It will undermine U.S. leadership in the world for generations to come".

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020829-1894731.htm

RENATE, Italy — Catholic insiders in Rome and Milan say Pope John Paul II, well aware of his failing health, has begun taking concrete steps to ensure a smooth succession by grooming the newly appointed archbishop of Milan, Dionigi Tettamanzi, to succeed him.


"His Holiness, knowing that his health will continue to get worse but to avoid a period of uncertainty and possible division following his death, has given a clear message that he wants Tettamanzi to succeed him," said a monsignor closely linked with the Roman Curia.

The monsignor and other church officials, who wished to not be identified discussing a papal succession, say the pope's decision last month to name Archbishop Tettamanzi, the 68-year-old cardinal of Genoa, to replace the retiring cardinal of Milan, Carlo Maria Martini, was an unmistakable way of indicating his preference.

Cardinal Martini is preparing to move to Jerusalem for religious study and meditation after he officially retires at the end of next month.

"Only once in the last hundred years has an Italian cardinal been transferred from one city to another, and the transfer of a cardinal to Milan, the second most important diocese, after Rome, puts Tettamanzi on the direct path to succeed the pope," said a senior church source close to Cardinal Martini.

Past attempts by the media to forecast who will be chosen as pope have almost invariably proved wrong. Even so, the Catholic press in Italy is comparing Archbishop Tettamanzi to Pope John XXIII, who is remembered in Italy as the "good pope."

Reports also have compared him to Cardinal Carlo Borromeo — who is beloved by Milanese for not fleeing the city during the plague — and underlining his close, personal relationship with John Paul II.

Nicknamed the "smiling pastor," Archbishop Tettamanzi is universally adored as a "man of the people" in his hometown of Renate, in the now prosperous Brianza area just north of Milan.

"Dionigi was never a kid and was really born a priest. Even when we were small children, Dionigi would avoid rough games and would instead say Mass," said one of Archbishop Tettamanzi's childhood friends, Renato Fumagalli.

A biography published by Renate's city council said Archbishop Tettamanzi declared his desire to become a priest when still in kindergarten and at age 11 left Renate to enter a seminary at nearby Seveso.

"Dionigi, from when I can remember, always wanted to be a priest, and our family, which was of very modest means, sacrificed to pay his tuition," said Archbishop Tettamanzi's 63-year-old brother, Antonio.

Don Emilio, a 26-year-old priest at Renate's parish, said Archbishop Tettamanzi's greatest gift is one of "dialogue, the ability to swim various streams or currents and craft a unified river at the end."

Although the Italian and foreign press give weight to speculation that the pope's successor could come from Latin America or Africa, Vatican and Northern Italian Catholic insiders say it would be nearly impossible for a non-Italian to succeed John Paul II.

"People tend to forget that Wojtyla was the first foreign pope to be elected in some 400 years and that there were special circumstances at the time, such as the Cold War," a former high-level Western diplomat said.

The diplomat, who was present in Rome during the conclave that elected John Paul, insisted the Pole never would have been chosen without the behind-the-scenes machinations of Jimmy Carter's Polish-born national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski.
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