Polygamist compound raided, hundreds of kids removed

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Butterscotch

War Child
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Messages
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I can't believe you all haven't discussed this yet. All those kids taken out of there looking like prairie dolls. Teen girls promised to middle aged men who already have 8 wives. Teen boys put out on the street because they are competition for the dirty old men who want multiple wives. Is this pedophilia and abuse, or religious freedom? It's very creepy, I can't believe this is really happening in the US in 2008!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23993440/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080410/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat
 
Yeah, I almost started a thread on this Tuesday, but kept getting distracted.

It's sickening.

I do not think religious freedom negates the law of the land, so the minors would fall under statuatory rape at least... But then again, I'm sure they forced the "consent" of the parents.

These compounds are very male ego driven, the relgion is just a front.
 
These predatory men need to be castrated and locked up for a long long time.

The women and children need to be sent to counseling.

<>
 
How can they receive counseling, when this was all that they knew - meaning it was normal to them?

I remember Dateline had a segment on this, and it showed the people of this religion calling out to the journalists and the cameras "We are going to get you! We are going to attack you!", as in threatening terrorism against the US, or the outside world to them. Its really scary that something like this exists in America.
 
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Pearl said:
How can they receive counseling, when this was all that they knew - meaning it was normal to them?

Should a child with an alcoholic parent not receive counseling because that's the only home life they've ever known?

Should a child who has been sexually abused repeatedly by a family member not receive counseling because that abuse is normal to them?
 
What I meant was, these people lived in such isolation from the rest of the world, they thought their ways were normal.

So in that case, instead of counseling them, try brainwashing them or re-brainwashing them into thinking their ways are not legal, normal, healthy, etc.
 
abcnews

Battle Over Sect Children Begins
One of the Largest Child Custody Cases in U.S. History Gets Under Way in Texas
By SCOTT MICHELS, NEAL KARLINSKY and SIGFRID RYDQUIST

ELDORADO, Texas, April 15, 2008 —

More than two dozen women who belong to a reclusive polygamous sect said in a rare public appearance that they felt lied to by state officials and pleaded for their 416 children to be returned to them.

The women returned to the sect's West Texas ranch Monday night after state officials separated them from their children who were taken into state custody after a raid on the compound last week.

Many of them sobbing, several of the mothers told ABC News that they weren't able to say goodbye to their children before being given the option to return to their ranch or be sent to another shelter.

"All we want is our children back, clean and pure," said a woman who identified herself as Sarah and said her five children were still in the state's shelter. "The last thing we have is our children."

The unexpected move is the latest twist in what appears to be one of the largest child custody cases in U.S. history, one that threatens to become a legal and logistical nightmare for the judges, lawyers and child custody workers involved.

After the surprise separation from their children, members of the sect invited reporters into their Yearning for Zion Ranch, which sits on 1,700 acres in the West Texas desert. More than 20 women, dressed in ankle-length dresses, assembled outside what appeared to be living quarters built from wooden logs, about a mile down a dirt road.

The state has said it suspects that the children of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are being physically and sexually abused and wants to strip parents of custody of their children.

If the state is successful, some of the children could be placed in foster care. Lawyers will begin to unravel the custody issues at a hearing later this week.

Carolyn Jessop, who escaped from the group five years ago with her eight children, was sympathetic to the mothers, but applauded the move.

"It's a difficult thing and my heart goes out to them. I can appreciate emotionally what they are going through," Jessop told "Good Morning America" today.

She said, however, the authorities were right to move the mothers out. "The children would be way more apt to open up when the mothers aren't there," Jessop said.

State officials raided the compound beginning April 3 after they said they received a phone call from a 16-year-old girl who claimed her 50-year-old husband raped and beat her. All 416 children were taken into custody and 139 women voluntarily left the compound with their children.

Authorities have not located or identified the 16-year-old caller, who identified herself as Sarah, and women at the compound said Monday that no such person exists.

"That person does not exist on this land," a woman who identified herself as Joy said. "This is a huge mistake."

The women who spoke Monday insisted that their children had never been abused. But, asked whether any girls in the sect had married older men when they were younger than 16, the women interviewed by ABC News declined to answer. "Nobody is forced into anything," was all that a woman who identified herself as Mary would say.

"What's happening now is the worst abuse that has ever happened to them," said Esther, who said she had five children still in state custody.

The mothers and the children were moved by bus with a police escort from the shelter where they had been staying to the San Angelo Coliseum.

The Rev. Michael Pfeifer, bishop of San Angelo, who has toured the shelter, told ABC News the women and children repeatedly said they wanted to go home. Pfeifer said the conditions inside the shelter were cramped, with cots lined up close together and lots of women tending to infants.

Women at the ranch said they were told today that they were moving to a better facility. But, once they arrived at the coliseum, the women told ABC News that they were separated from their children and led into a room that was filled with police officers and child custody workers.

Only those with children younger than 5 were allowed to stay with them. The women said they were given a choice to return to their ranch or to go to a separate shelter.

"It's so difficult to come back here without our children," said a woman who identified herself as Mary. She said her two children, 6 and 8, were still in the shelter. "Our children are our lives." p>

Rod Parker, a church lawyer, said there was a "huge amount" of mistrust between the FLDS families and state authorities, adding that some of the mothers who followed their children to the state shelters did not go to court today for fear that they would not be allowed to return to the shelters to see their children.

Several of the children have given investigators differing stories about who their parents are, attorneys told Walther.

Fearing that members of the sect remaining on the ranch would try to influence their testimony, on Sunday, the judge ordered mobile phones confiscated from the 100-plus mothers who accompanied children to the shelter.

Walther said that one of her priorities was to determine how many girls taken from the remote Yearning for Zion Ranch were underage mothers.

Bradshaw said the 60 or so men remaining at the ranch have offered to leave if the state will allow the women and children to return. He said he had not received a response and the state Children's Protective Services agency said it had not yet seen the offer and had no comment on it, The Associated Press reported.

The mothers say their only priority now is to get their children back. Esther said her daughter, who turns 12 this month, was so upset when placed in the shelter that she began throwing up and stopped eating for several days.

"She was sick. She was so heartbroken," she said. "We feel they are in danger."
 
They haven't even been able to confirm all the children's names and ages and who their mothers are yet, because the mothers were coaching them to give contradictory answers. Which was why they separated them, but that's exactly what caused the Short Creek raid back in the '50s to backfire and drive these FLDS communities even further underground.

I sure wouldn't want to be one of the lawyers or police officers involved; the legal issues are really vexing.
 
diamond said:
So, has the allegation of rape been proved yet?

<>

No but there are a lot of underage girls pregnant by disgusting middle aged men. That's illegal, even if not always 'rape.'
 
yolland said:
that's exactly what caused the Short Creek raid back in the '50s to backfire and drive these FLDS communities even further underground.

I sure wouldn't want to be one of the lawyers or police officers involved; the legal issues are really vexing.

I think things will be a little different this time
this is not the 50s
this is Texas, less tolerance for these people there

i do think the initial call
may have been staged
there seems to be no young girl
to testify
and the "alleged" man in the complaint has been questioned and not charged


with all that,
I do think think these children are not in a healthy environment

is it better to tear them away from the only family they know ?

will the State of Texas even be able to make any cases?

Unfortunately, when one claims a "religious belief" many will sympathize.
 
deep said:
will the State of Texas even be able to make any cases?
Well that was my concern--that unless they're able to positively identify the girl who made those calls, they'll have a hard time prosecuting anyone. If they're able to prove at the hearing that underage pregnancies have occurred, that would probably be enough to get most or all the children placed in foster homes, at which point it's up to their parents to identify themselves and agree to counseling if they want to have much chance of getting their children back.

Do you really think there are many who'd "sympathize" with them if statutory rape with the full knowledge of the community is shown to have happened, though? Defending their right to live this extremely cloistered lifestyle and arrange 'spiritual marriages,' yes, there I can see them getting sympathy; but not for the open practice of sex with minors.

I suppose you could argue that as long as they're allowed to live walled off from the world like this, that will continue to happen.
 
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Is there sex with minors (under age of 16) outside of marriage (plural)?

or do they just do their plural marriages
(which I don't agree with or think should be legal)


the bed story, in the temple, does not sound legit



I don't know if you remember the Branch Davidians
there was a claim of child sexual abuse before the Feds rushed in and the place burned down
 
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I was studying abroad at the time so no, I don't remember it well, but that warrant pertained to weapons charges, didn't it? Were complaints actually made to the authorities about sexual abuse?

Not sure I understand your first question...of course statutory rape happens outside that context (not necessarily at this ranch, I'd have no idea about that), but there's a difference between having a child molester in your community unbeknown to most and having a communal practice of adult men having sex with underage girls 'spiritually married' to them. But as far as girls who aren't underage, isn't it the case that they're just 'cohabiting' from the standpoint of the law, and therefore there's little they can really do about it? I know there have been past instances where authorities used 'common law marriage' (in the handful of states still recognizing it) to prosecute for bigamy, but my understanding is that there aren't really any other avenues for prosecution. In some US cities there are immigrant communities where polygamy is known to be practiced also, but it seems we never hear about prosecutions for that.
 
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I remember watching the Branch Davidians standoff unfold, day after day

yes the ATF was there on weapons charges

but at the time Reno sent them in
all the news stories were that Koresh was having relations with underage girls and he had to be stopped

when it happened the public was really behind it
they were more upset at Clinton and Reno
for allowing it to go on as long as it did

then when they set fire to the place and the children died, too

the GOP saw an opportunity to exploit it. as an over reaction by the Clinton Administration


as for this Texas situation
I mention 16, because I believe 16 is the age of consent in Texas
I don't know when statutory rape kicks in
if these girls are 15, 14 and the like,
the state should have a strong case.

It really is one big mess.

It is a shame it has been allowed to go on this long
that there are over 400 children that only know these family relationships.
 
I saw a few of these women on Larry King. They are all extremely rehearsed, and it's no wonder that the investigators can't piece together the story.

I have always been bothered by the fact that the state allows this community to exist in renegade towns where the law authorities either have no access or they are comprised of the community members themselves. These people function entirely outside of the law, and not just criminally either - they regularly commit tax fraud, municipal and environmental infractions, fail to comply with educational standards and so on. There is one such town in the southern part of British Columbia as well and it's been the same sort of problem. Again, people relying on religion to live outside of the boundaries set for the rest of us. I can't fathom anyone setting up such a lawless community outside of the context of religion and having it be acceptable to the same degree.
 
I read that they bought that place in 03 and it is now estimated to be worth $20 million-where did they get the money to buy it? Warren Jeffs? Apparently they built their own power grid and other necessities.
 
anitram said:
I saw a few of these women on Larry King. They are all extremely rehearsed, and it's no wonder that the investigators can't piece together the story.

I have always been bothered by the fact that the state allows this community to exist in renegade towns where the law authorities either have no access or they are comprised of the community members themselves. These people function entirely outside of the law, and not just criminally either - they regularly commit tax fraud, municipal and environmental infractions, fail to comply with educational standards and so on. There is one such town in the southern part of British Columbia as well and it's been the same sort of problem. Again, people relying on religion to live outside of the boundaries set for the rest of us. I can't fathom anyone setting up such a lawless community outside of the context of religion and having it be acceptable to the same degree.

Agreed 100% with this.
 
deep said:
Is there sex with minors (under age of 16) outside of marriage (plural)?

or do they just do their plural marriages
(which I don't agree with or think should be legal)

This is what the deal is- their sect believes in plural marriage, however, in the US they are against the law. Therefore, all but the first wife are only married to the man 'spiritually'- which means that technically, the additional wives are not legal wives. Therefore, the young girls they are 'marrying' are actually not married to them , they just like to say they are in their world, but that doesn't change the law of the land- they are having sex with minors they are not really married to.

Because the parents give consent for the girls to be 'married' to these older men, and the girls are not always willing, this could actually be some form of child abuse (though of course not in their way of thinking)


MrsSpringsteen said:
I read that they bought that place in 03 and it is now estimated to be worth $20 million-where did they get the money to buy it? Warren Jeffs? Apparently they built their own power grid and other necessities.

On CNN, I heard that because the extra wives are not legally married, they are technically 'single mothers'- and can- and DO- collect welfare for all their kids! (the compound profits from welfare payments on a large scale) So they are using the system they denounce to their financial advantage!

Of course, no one can get rich off of welfare alone (though there are a lot of kids in there!) I have also heard that people who join must sign over all their personal holdings to the church- houses, cars, savings accounts, etc.

If you leave the group or are put out, you do not get your money back. In a story a few years ago, there was a 16 year old girl at the Arizona compound who refused the arranged marriage to an older man and left the sect, and her parents were put out of the sect in shame, but because they had legally signed over their home and assets, they lost everything.
 
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The most distubing thing about this to me is that the focus seems to be on wife collecting and not religion. If 'holiness' were the goal, they'd be happy with one wife.

It seems really sick how they have to turn a certain number of boys out into the street at puberty to eliminate competition, can't anyone see that's just because the old men want the girls for themselves? The Mormons of old claimed that plural marriage was necessary to keep up their numbers because there were more females than males (which may or may not be true, and still isn't justifyable) but in this case, there are plenty of males, and they're getting rid of some of them so others can have more girls! That's got to be among the most perverted things I've ever heard. I can't believe most of the girls wouldn't choose a guy her own age if she had the chance. I wouldn't have much of a problem with a 16 yr. old girl getting married, or having sex IF it was with a boyfriend she chose willingly, but I don't believe that is the case here. It's more like arranged marriages from the middle ages. Even if some of the girls might claim they are happy with it, it's only because they were raised to believe that and don't know anything else, and they are afraid to fight it, end up excommunicated, and in hell. That's why it's abuse that the children are raised that way.
 
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I agree that if they were underage and or not consenting it's a horrible crime.

But, how do you feel if they were 17+ and all just living together? Is that cool with you guys? How do you feel about women having multiple "partners" or husband-like indivuals who provide support?
 
MadelynIris said:
But, how do you feel if they were 17+ and all just living together? Is that cool with you guys? How do you feel about women having multiple "partners" or husband-like indivuals who provide support?

Except in many cases, they are not.

One of the big issues here is that because you can only legally have one wife, the remaining ones are classified as single mothers and have a tendency to collect massive amounts of welfare on behalf of the many, many children they have.
 
I think that what's known about this sect's (or should I say cult's?) ideology and socialization practices from ex-members' accounts provides ample reason to doubt the consensuality of these 'marriages,' even when not underage. But legally speaking, yes, it can be quite a gray area because the law tends to assume consensuality unless a criminal complaint is made.
 
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I have to say, no matter how damaging this way of life probably is for the people involved, I felt very badly for those poor mothers who had their children taken from them. This story isn't even that important, but CNN just goes on and on exploiting it. That worthless waste of space Larry King can't even treat these women with respect; he just has this reprimanding tone; it was all so cruel, so lacking in compassion and any true objectivity rooted in reason and understanding about how natural it was for these people to continue their culture.

It's just so wrong, and those kids are going to be traumatized by the event.
 
This story IS important, but I agree that the mothers have been treated unfairly... This is obviously a case of "cultural" brainwashing, and though I don't feel like they should get a free ride, for they have a big part in this, they don't need to be completely shut out...
 
abcnews.com

Where is the 16 year Old Polygamist Victim?

Experts say Texas polygamy case may unravel if girls is not found.
By SCOTT MICHELS and CHRIS CUOMO

SAN ANGELO, Texas, April 17, 2008 —

Among the hundreds of children, lawyers and caseworkers involved in an unprecedented child custody hearing, one person will be noticeably absent -- the 16-year-old girl whose call for help set in motion the largest child protection case in U.S. history.

Texas authorities say they have not located or identified the girl, though they have said they believe she is among the 416 children from a polygamous sect who were taken into state custody nearly two weeks ago.

Some people are now questioning whether she exists at all.

Though the girl is not key to today's hearing, her absence looms over the case. Without her, any potential criminal charges that might be brought against members of the sect in the future could be jeopardized, legal experts say.

"This girl is proving to be the linchpin of the entire operation," Jonathan Turley, a constitutional law professor at George Washington University, told ABC News. "If she doesn't exist, it's going to make it very difficult to defend this search. And if you can't do that, you can't use anything they found in there."

In late March, a girl who identified herself as Sarah made several petrified calls to an abuse hot line, complaining that her 49-year-old husband physically and sexually abused her, court records say. The calls prompted government officials to raid the Yearning for Zion Ranch in West Texas and take all the children into custody.

But, several women who live on the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ranch told ABC News that Sarah does not exist.

"She's a bogus person," a woman who identified herself as Joy said earlier this week.

Since the calls, several events have raised questions about Sarah.

Investigators were apparently searching for information about the girl and seized medical records for several women who shared the name given by Sarah during their search of the compound, according to court records. Though an arrest warrant was issued for a man thought to be her husband, police did not arrest him.

On April 4, a day after Texas police raided the compound, an abuse hot line in Arizona received a similar call from a 16-year-old who said she was calling from the FLDS community in Colorado City, Ariz.

The girl said she was being held against her will and physically abused, said Fernando Vender, a spokesman for the Arizona Department of Economic Security, which oversees child protective services.

When Arizona investigators visited a family with the same name provided by the caller, they did not find the girl or any evidence of abuse, he said. Though the case remains open, investigators "could not verify that there was a young girl by that name, with that family and that abuse was going on," Vender said.

In Texas, state Attorney General Greg Abbott wasn't so concerned about finding the caller named Sarah.

"It's irrelevant if the 16-year-old can and will be found," Abbott told "Good Morning America" today.

He said Child Protective Services "believe they have significant evidence" that abuse occurred and that the children would be in danger if they were returned to the ranch.

Abbott hinted that additional charges could be brought against sect members because women who gave television interviews in recent days "basically admitted to living in a state of bigamy... That also would be a ground for legal prosecution here in the state of Texas."

But others believe that criminal charges against sect members could be jeopardized if the girl is never identified.

Lisa Wayne, a criminal defense lawyer, said sect members potentially face a variety of criminal charges, including statutory rape, abuse or negligence.

But the sect could challenge the search warrant that police used to enter the compound if the girl is never identified and some of the evidence that investigators found could be suppressed, she said.

"In a criminal case, you have the right to know who may give the government probable cause to come on the premises," she said.

In her calls to the family shelter, Sarah said she believed she was pregnant with her second child. She claimed her husband was a 49-year-old man named Dale. She said that he raped and beat her, once breaking her ribs, and that she was being held at the ranch against her will.

This weekend, Texas Rangers interviewed Dale Evans Barlow, 50, who is named in the search and arrest warrant used to search the compound, but did not arrest him.

Barlow was briefly jailed in Arizona last year, sentenced to three years' probation and forced to register as a sex offender after he was convicted of conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor, according to Mohave County, Ariz., Probation Department Chief Friend Walker.

But, Barlow's lawyer told ABC News that he has not been to Texas since 1977 and Walker said Barlow had been checking in regularly with his Arizona probation officer.

Kathleen Mackert, who said she fled the FLDS community in Colorado City after years of sexual abuse, said she believes Sarah is real but may have been taken out of the compound before police arrived.

"They would want to avoid them getting ahold of her at all costs," she said.

Mackert said sect members are taught that they should lie to the government and other outsiders. "We were expected to lie," she said. "They were the enemy."

Sarah's absence probably will not affect today's custody hearing, during which the state will ask to keep the children in state custody and place them in temporary foster homes, legal experts say. More important to the future of the children in state custody will be what the police found once they were inside the compound.

Guy Choate, who is helping to coordinate lawyers for the children, said it's not unusual for child custody cases to be based on an anonymous call. If caseworkers find evidence of abuse, they are obligated to take action, he said.
 
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