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Old 04-18-2008, 02:25 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Muldfeld
I have to say, no matter how damaging this way of life probably is for the people involved, I felt very badly for those poor mothers who had their children taken from them. This story isn't even that important, but CNN just goes on and on exploiting it. That worthless waste of space Larry King can't even treat these women with respect; he just has this reprimanding tone; it was all so cruel, so lacking in compassion and any true objectivity rooted in reason and understanding about how natural it was for these people to continue their culture.

It's just so wrong, and those kids are going to be traumatized by the event.
Agreed. Whatever the details of the case, it's just so unfortunate that these kids are going through this huge upheaval. I feel for the mothers as well. I think there's no easy way of going about it though, as they obviously needed to be removed from such a toxic situation. Sad..
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Old 04-24-2008, 01:28 AM   #32
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Texas 911 Calls Linked To 33-Year-Old Colorado Woman With History of False Claims

By David Fahrenthold
Washington Post, April 24


SAN ANGELO, TX -- The phone calls that triggered a massive raid on a polygamist compound in west Texas--in which a quavering girl's voice described being forcibly married at 15--have been linked to a Colorado woman with a history of making false claims of sexual abuse, according to an affidavit filed in Colorado Springs. The affidavit says calls that allegedly came from "Sarah Barlow"--a teenage girl at the Yearning for Zion Ranch outside Eldorado, Tex.--actually came from numbers connected to Rozita Swinton, 33, of Colorado Springs. The affidavit also notes Swinton's possible involvement in a series of separate but similar reports in which the young caller described being abused by a pastor, an uncle or her father.

Texas authorities yesterday said they have not determined whether the calls about the Yearning for Zion Ranch were a hoax and that they plan to press on with their investigation of possible sexual abuse there. More than 400 children are now in state custody, as authorities try to sort out what happened at the ranch run by a polygamist group called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. "Until she's actually been charged" with a crime related to the phone calls, Swinton's role "is still an open question," state Department of Public Safety spokesman Tom Vinger said.

But the revelations about phone calls to shelters for abused women in Colorado, Washington, Utah, Arizona and Florida cast doubt on the dramatic scenario that led Texas authorities to investigate and ultimately to raid the compound April 3. The raid made the insular sect the subject of one of the most complex child-custody cases in recent U.S. history.

...On Wednesday, officials at the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said that the facts surrounding the first phone call had become irrelevant because the raid turned up independent evidence that underage girls had been impregnated. "The removal was based on our investigation. It was not based on the initial call," spokesman Patrick Crimmins said.

The affidavit made public Wednesday, which was provided to the Post by the Associated Press, indicates links to Swinton even though she has no apparent connection to the Eldorado ranch. One phone number used to call the San Angelo shelter is registered to a Courtney Swinton, with an address in Rozita Swinton's apartment complex. The affidavit said authorities had "several reports regarding Rozita Swinton making false reports" with another number that had also been used to call the shelter...The affidavit described these events as part of a request for a warrant for Swinton, charging her with false reporting to authorities. It said she had already pleaded guilty to false reporting last year in Colorado. Attempts to reach Swinton yesterday were unsuccessful: One number listed on the affidavit was disconnected, and a call to another was not returned.

The affidavit does not put forward any motive Swinton might have had for allegedly making the calls, but it hints at a possible personality disorder. The document quotes a former worker at a shelter for abused women in Colorado Springs who may have received calls from Swinton in February. In one, Swinton allegedly said, "Rozita and Dana are in the same body, but just different personalities," and that the "Dana personality is there to protect Rozita from being hurt."
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Old 04-24-2008, 04:06 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Thanks for the post Yolland.

I was hoping someone with some equalibrium, temerity and guts would step forward and post this in FYM

It answers my earlier posted question:


Quote:
So, has the allegation of rape been proved yet?
Like everbody else I *initially* had the same reaction, but changed my views as the story unfolded.

<>
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:32 PM   #34
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If "statutory rape" applies

there is plenty of evidence.

Quote:
Officials: 31 of 53 girls from sect ranch have been pregnant

Apr 28 03:45 PM US/Eastern
By MICHELLE ROBERTS
Associated Press Writer

SAN ANTONIO (AP) - Texas child welfare officials say more than half the teen girls swept into state custody from a polygamist sect's ranch have been pregnant.

Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.

State officials took custody of all 463 children at the Yearning For Zion Ranch more than three weeks ago after a raid prompted by calls to a domestic violence hotline.

Child welfare officials say there was a pattern of underage girls forced into "spiritual marriages" with much older men at the ranch.
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Old 04-28-2008, 08:20 PM   #35
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http://www.captivefldschildren.org/










http://www.fldstruth.org/
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Old 04-28-2008, 11:57 PM   #36
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I feel horrible for the children and the mother's, who didn't know any better and a great deal of them won't really understand what's wrong with this picture untill it's resolved and the counseling can begin.
These types of compounds are phedophile factories and it's the suseptible girls, women and in some cases young men - that are taught by manipulative, sick, greedy, men - that this is "in the name of GOD. Once again God cringes.
I'm not letting some the women off the hook here either. To allow somoene to perpretrate this on a child is reprehensible.
This is going to be really difficult trials. But it needs to be done.
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:40 AM   #37
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Lawmakers consider more involvement on polygamists

by MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press, July 24


SAN ANTONIO — Lawmakers and former polygamist church members at a hearing before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee on Thursday accused a sect under investigation in Texas and elsewhere of denying women and children their basic rights. The panel, requested by Sen. Harry Reid, met to consider ways to better coordinate federal and state law enforcement's response to groups like the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which prosecutors say has successfully avoided law enforcement by moving across state and international boundaries. The sect has been accused of forcing underage girls into marriage and sex and controlling members financially, charges FLDS members have denied. "What's happening here is as bad as anything I've seen in the world," said Sen. Benjamin Cardin, D-Md. "This group could easily be classified as a hate crimes group because of what they're teaching young children. It really does cry out for us to be very comprehensive."

Federal prosecutors and attorneys general from Utah, Arizona, Texas and Nevada were invited to testify, as were two former FLDS members who have been critical of the sect. Several current members were at the hearing in Washington but were not invited to speak. Calls to spokesmen for the sect were not immediately returned Thursday, but member Willie Jessop said earlier in the week that Congress had purposely solicited only testimony from those who opposed the sect. "The one message we hope people are getting loud and clear is this has become a situation where people don't want to know the truth," said Jessop.

The witnesses at the hearing said authorities have and should continue investigating crimes ranging from domestic violence and child abuse to tax evasion and child labor law violations—acts they accused FLDS members of cloaking in religion. "Claims of freedom of religion should not be allowed to blind us to the many illegal and unconscionable activities of the FLDS leadership," said Daniel Fischer, a former member and outspoken critic of the sect.

Reid, D-Nev., has introduced legislation that would put together a task force to coordinate federal and state law enforcement and provide grants to aid those leaving the sect. Prosecutors at the hearing said the agencies already work together, but most welcomed additional coordination. "It is critical that federal authorities focus on the FLDS and devote the resources to prosecute criminal wrongdoing that is uncovered" regardless of what state it occurs in, said Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott.

On Tuesday, Texas became the latest state to file criminal charges against FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, who has already been convicted of being an accomplice to rape in Utah and awaits trial in Arizona on charges related to alleged underage marriages of sect girls. A grand jury indicted him and four followers on charges of sexual abuse of children. One of the followers also faces a bigamy charge, and a sixth FLDS member was indicted for failing to report child abuse.

One prosecutor cautioned though that a "blunt instrument" like a federal task force may be counterproductive after years of working to gain the trust of FLDS members. "Polygamist communities are highly self-contained and insular, which makes them difficult for law enforcement to infiltrate," said Brett Tolman, the U.S. Attorney for Utah. The announcement of the congressional hearing and federal involvement has already caused some who were cooperative with outside law enforcement to begin withdrawing recently, he said.

The FLDS, which believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway sect of the mainline Mormon church, which disavowed polygamy more than a century ago and which excommunicates those who practice it.
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:10 AM   #38
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I admit it, I'm ignorant and stupid on this subject and therefore I'm going to ask the question that has been burning in my brain since this whole thing began - my question is out of true ignorance and there is no disrespect intended so PLEASE forgive me if I offend anyone with this question.....and I'd really appreciate a straight answer rather than just harsh remarks - because I really want to know:


Why are people so against this polygamist thing and yet they'll do everything to allow gay marriages? What's the difference?? Both are unconventional but Polygamy was very much the norm during biblical times whereas homosexuality is still considered a sin against god. So why is everyone going after the Polygamists while at the same time advocating the gay issue?
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:47 AM   #39
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One reason, among others: It doesn't matter what is in the bible or what is perceived to be against god.

Also: In a gay relationship both partners are equal. With exceptions, of course, polygamous relationships are often not equal in their power structure.

And one practical consideration: There is yet to be any legal framework about inheriting rights, divorce, child custody and so on.
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Old 07-28-2008, 07:16 AM   #40
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I wouldn't mind polygamy being legal as long as all parties consented to the arrangement and were consenting adults (or close enough, ie, most states allow people under 18 to marry if they have parental permission). Of course, what if a couple gets married and a year or so later the husband decides he wants to get a second wife, but his wife doesn't want that? Or what if a guy has four wives and then wife #2 wants another husband? Does that husband move in with wife #2 and all her fellow wives and husband #1? What if husband #2 has one or more other wives of his own already? What happens if wife #3 wants a divorce? What is she entitled to in the divorce settlement? How are child visitation rights handled if there is a divorce? Does wife #2, who mostly cared for the children, but isn't their biological mother, get any visitation?

Polygamist marriages would be incredibly complex and messy just in the legal details in ways no two person marriage could ever be, and that, not any moral qualms, is why I don't see them as practical. A gay marriage works virtually identically to a heterosexual marriage (as does a gay divorce), but throw an extra person (or three or so) into the mix and the potential complications abound. If someone can figure out how to make it work in a way it is fair to all parties, I'm fine with it.
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Old 07-28-2008, 10:00 AM   #41
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I wouldn't mind polygamy being legal as long as all parties consented to the arrangement and were consenting adults (or close enough, ie, most states allow people under 18 to marry if they have parental permission). Of course, what if a couple gets married and a year or so later the husband decides he wants to get a second wife, but his wife doesn't want that? Or what if a guy has four wives and then wife #2 wants another husband? Does that husband move in with wife #2 and all her fellow wives and husband #1? What if husband #2 has one or more other wives of his own already? What happens if wife #3 wants a divorce? What is she entitled to in the divorce settlement? How are child visitation rights handled if there is a divorce? Does wife #2, who mostly cared for the children, but isn't their biological mother, get any visitation?

Polygamist marriages would be incredibly complex and messy just in the legal details in ways no two person marriage could ever be, and that, not any moral qualms, is why I don't see them as practical. A gay marriage works virtually identically to a heterosexual marriage (as does a gay divorce), but throw an extra person (or three or so) into the mix and the potential complications abound. If someone can figure out how to make it work in a way it is fair to all parties, I'm fine with it.
Agree 100%.
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Old 07-28-2008, 11:07 AM   #42
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Polygamist marriages in the FLDS context are largely unworkable because they are based on power imbalances among the couples.

Legally speaking, it would also be very difficult. How do we tax these people? Are the mothers single mothers or do we have an expectation for the one husband to be able to provide a share to each wife and her children to the extent that they are not an automatic burden on the state? A lot of people don't want to discuss this, but there is a huge social security issue here, because the mothers (except for wife #1) are single mothers with a large number of children, who are an inherent burden to the state, since they are either not permitted to work outside the home, or traditionally elect not to. It's politically handy to point out the single mother in Harlem with 3 "welfare babies" but this is precisely what is happening here, and it is a perpetual reliance on the state since the economic conditions of the women cannot/will not change.
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Old 07-28-2008, 03:48 PM   #43
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I still do not understand how polygamy and gay marriage relate in any way. When people say, "If you allow gay marriage you have to allow polygamy," I just immediately stop discussing the issue with that person.
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Old 07-28-2008, 04:28 PM   #44
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If gays are allowed to marry
polygamy will be next.


You know how promiscuous gay men are,
do you think they will be satisfied with just one spouse?
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Old 08-01-2008, 12:18 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Lawmakers and former polygamist church members at a hearing before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee on Thursday accused a sect under investigation in Texas and elsewhere of denying women and children their basic rights. The panel, requested by Sen. Harry Reid, met to consider ways to better coordinate federal and state law enforcement's response to groups like the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Wow, that's kind of an interesting twist since Senator Reid is a member of the mainstream LDS church -- from which the FLDS church broke away in the late 1800's over the issue of polygamy.
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