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Old 04-17-2008, 02:58 AM   #16
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Is there sex with minors (under age of 16) outside of marriage (plural)?

or do they just do their plural marriages
(which I don't agree with or think should be legal)


the bed story, in the temple, does not sound legit



I don't know if you remember the Branch Davidians
there was a claim of child sexual abuse before the Feds rushed in and the place burned down
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:29 AM   #17
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I was studying abroad at the time so no, I don't remember it well, but that warrant pertained to weapons charges, didn't it? Were complaints actually made to the authorities about sexual abuse?

Not sure I understand your first question...of course statutory rape happens outside that context (not necessarily at this ranch, I'd have no idea about that), but there's a difference between having a child molester in your community unbeknown to most and having a communal practice of adult men having sex with underage girls 'spiritually married' to them. But as far as girls who aren't underage, isn't it the case that they're just 'cohabiting' from the standpoint of the law, and therefore there's little they can really do about it? I know there have been past instances where authorities used 'common law marriage' (in the handful of states still recognizing it) to prosecute for bigamy, but my understanding is that there aren't really any other avenues for prosecution. In some US cities there are immigrant communities where polygamy is known to be practiced also, but it seems we never hear about prosecutions for that.
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:47 AM   #18
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I remember watching the Branch Davidians standoff unfold, day after day

yes the ATF was there on weapons charges

but at the time Reno sent them in
all the news stories were that Koresh was having relations with underage girls and he had to be stopped

when it happened the public was really behind it
they were more upset at Clinton and Reno
for allowing it to go on as long as it did

then when they set fire to the place and the children died, too

the GOP saw an opportunity to exploit it. as an over reaction by the Clinton Administration


as for this Texas situation
I mention 16, because I believe 16 is the age of consent in Texas
I don't know when statutory rape kicks in
if these girls are 15, 14 and the like,
the state should have a strong case.

It really is one big mess.

It is a shame it has been allowed to go on this long
that there are over 400 children that only know these family relationships.
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Old 04-17-2008, 07:39 AM   #19
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I saw a few of these women on Larry King. They are all extremely rehearsed, and it's no wonder that the investigators can't piece together the story.

I have always been bothered by the fact that the state allows this community to exist in renegade towns where the law authorities either have no access or they are comprised of the community members themselves. These people function entirely outside of the law, and not just criminally either - they regularly commit tax fraud, municipal and environmental infractions, fail to comply with educational standards and so on. There is one such town in the southern part of British Columbia as well and it's been the same sort of problem. Again, people relying on religion to live outside of the boundaries set for the rest of us. I can't fathom anyone setting up such a lawless community outside of the context of religion and having it be acceptable to the same degree.
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:39 AM   #20
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I read that they bought that place in 03 and it is now estimated to be worth $20 million-where did they get the money to buy it? Warren Jeffs? Apparently they built their own power grid and other necessities.
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I saw a few of these women on Larry King. They are all extremely rehearsed, and it's no wonder that the investigators can't piece together the story.

I have always been bothered by the fact that the state allows this community to exist in renegade towns where the law authorities either have no access or they are comprised of the community members themselves. These people function entirely outside of the law, and not just criminally either - they regularly commit tax fraud, municipal and environmental infractions, fail to comply with educational standards and so on. There is one such town in the southern part of British Columbia as well and it's been the same sort of problem. Again, people relying on religion to live outside of the boundaries set for the rest of us. I can't fathom anyone setting up such a lawless community outside of the context of religion and having it be acceptable to the same degree.
Agreed 100% with this.
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:55 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Is there sex with minors (under age of 16) outside of marriage (plural)?

or do they just do their plural marriages
(which I don't agree with or think should be legal)
This is what the deal is- their sect believes in plural marriage, however, in the US they are against the law. Therefore, all but the first wife are only married to the man 'spiritually'- which means that technically, the additional wives are not legal wives. Therefore, the young girls they are 'marrying' are actually not married to them , they just like to say they are in their world, but that doesn't change the law of the land- they are having sex with minors they are not really married to.

Because the parents give consent for the girls to be 'married' to these older men, and the girls are not always willing, this could actually be some form of child abuse (though of course not in their way of thinking)


Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I read that they bought that place in 03 and it is now estimated to be worth $20 million-where did they get the money to buy it? Warren Jeffs? Apparently they built their own power grid and other necessities.
On CNN, I heard that because the extra wives are not legally married, they are technically 'single mothers'- and can- and DO- collect welfare for all their kids! (the compound profits from welfare payments on a large scale) So they are using the system they denounce to their financial advantage!

Of course, no one can get rich off of welfare alone (though there are a lot of kids in there!) I have also heard that people who join must sign over all their personal holdings to the church- houses, cars, savings accounts, etc.

If you leave the group or are put out, you do not get your money back. In a story a few years ago, there was a 16 year old girl at the Arizona compound who refused the arranged marriage to an older man and left the sect, and her parents were put out of the sect in shame, but because they had legally signed over their home and assets, they lost everything.
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:31 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

as for this Texas situation
I mention 16, because I believe 16 is the age of consent in Texas
It's 17 in Texas...
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Old 04-17-2008, 04:56 PM   #24
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The most distubing thing about this to me is that the focus seems to be on wife collecting and not religion. If 'holiness' were the goal, they'd be happy with one wife.

It seems really sick how they have to turn a certain number of boys out into the street at puberty to eliminate competition, can't anyone see that's just because the old men want the girls for themselves? The Mormons of old claimed that plural marriage was necessary to keep up their numbers because there were more females than males (which may or may not be true, and still isn't justifyable) but in this case, there are plenty of males, and they're getting rid of some of them so others can have more girls! That's got to be among the most perverted things I've ever heard. I can't believe most of the girls wouldn't choose a guy her own age if she had the chance. I wouldn't have much of a problem with a 16 yr. old girl getting married, or having sex IF it was with a boyfriend she chose willingly, but I don't believe that is the case here. It's more like arranged marriages from the middle ages. Even if some of the girls might claim they are happy with it, it's only because they were raised to believe that and don't know anything else, and they are afraid to fight it, end up excommunicated, and in hell. That's why it's abuse that the children are raised that way.
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:28 PM   #25
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I agree that if they were underage and or not consenting it's a horrible crime.

But, how do you feel if they were 17+ and all just living together? Is that cool with you guys? How do you feel about women having multiple "partners" or husband-like indivuals who provide support?
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:40 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
But, how do you feel if they were 17+ and all just living together? Is that cool with you guys? How do you feel about women having multiple "partners" or husband-like indivuals who provide support?
Except in many cases, they are not.

One of the big issues here is that because you can only legally have one wife, the remaining ones are classified as single mothers and have a tendency to collect massive amounts of welfare on behalf of the many, many children they have.
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:59 PM   #27
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I think that what's known about this sect's (or should I say cult's?) ideology and socialization practices from ex-members' accounts provides ample reason to doubt the consensuality of these 'marriages,' even when not underage. But legally speaking, yes, it can be quite a gray area because the law tends to assume consensuality unless a criminal complaint is made.
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Old 04-18-2008, 01:42 AM   #28
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I have to say, no matter how damaging this way of life probably is for the people involved, I felt very badly for those poor mothers who had their children taken from them. This story isn't even that important, but CNN just goes on and on exploiting it. That worthless waste of space Larry King can't even treat these women with respect; he just has this reprimanding tone; it was all so cruel, so lacking in compassion and any true objectivity rooted in reason and understanding about how natural it was for these people to continue their culture.

It's just so wrong, and those kids are going to be traumatized by the event.
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Old 04-18-2008, 02:05 AM   #29
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This story IS important, but I agree that the mothers have been treated unfairly... This is obviously a case of "cultural" brainwashing, and though I don't feel like they should get a free ride, for they have a big part in this, they don't need to be completely shut out...
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:01 AM   #30
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abcnews.com

Where is the 16 year Old Polygamist Victim?

Experts say Texas polygamy case may unravel if girls is not found.
By SCOTT MICHELS and CHRIS CUOMO

SAN ANGELO, Texas, April 17, 2008 —

Among the hundreds of children, lawyers and caseworkers involved in an unprecedented child custody hearing, one person will be noticeably absent -- the 16-year-old girl whose call for help set in motion the largest child protection case in U.S. history.

Texas authorities say they have not located or identified the girl, though they have said they believe she is among the 416 children from a polygamous sect who were taken into state custody nearly two weeks ago.

Some people are now questioning whether she exists at all.

Though the girl is not key to today's hearing, her absence looms over the case. Without her, any potential criminal charges that might be brought against members of the sect in the future could be jeopardized, legal experts say.

"This girl is proving to be the linchpin of the entire operation," Jonathan Turley, a constitutional law professor at George Washington University, told ABC News. "If she doesn't exist, it's going to make it very difficult to defend this search. And if you can't do that, you can't use anything they found in there."

In late March, a girl who identified herself as Sarah made several petrified calls to an abuse hot line, complaining that her 49-year-old husband physically and sexually abused her, court records say. The calls prompted government officials to raid the Yearning for Zion Ranch in West Texas and take all the children into custody.

But, several women who live on the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ranch told ABC News that Sarah does not exist.

"She's a bogus person," a woman who identified herself as Joy said earlier this week.

Since the calls, several events have raised questions about Sarah.

Investigators were apparently searching for information about the girl and seized medical records for several women who shared the name given by Sarah during their search of the compound, according to court records. Though an arrest warrant was issued for a man thought to be her husband, police did not arrest him.

On April 4, a day after Texas police raided the compound, an abuse hot line in Arizona received a similar call from a 16-year-old who said she was calling from the FLDS community in Colorado City, Ariz.

The girl said she was being held against her will and physically abused, said Fernando Vender, a spokesman for the Arizona Department of Economic Security, which oversees child protective services.

When Arizona investigators visited a family with the same name provided by the caller, they did not find the girl or any evidence of abuse, he said. Though the case remains open, investigators "could not verify that there was a young girl by that name, with that family and that abuse was going on," Vender said.

In Texas, state Attorney General Greg Abbott wasn't so concerned about finding the caller named Sarah.

"It's irrelevant if the 16-year-old can and will be found," Abbott told "Good Morning America" today.

He said Child Protective Services "believe they have significant evidence" that abuse occurred and that the children would be in danger if they were returned to the ranch.

Abbott hinted that additional charges could be brought against sect members because women who gave television interviews in recent days "basically admitted to living in a state of bigamy... That also would be a ground for legal prosecution here in the state of Texas."

But others believe that criminal charges against sect members could be jeopardized if the girl is never identified.

Lisa Wayne, a criminal defense lawyer, said sect members potentially face a variety of criminal charges, including statutory rape, abuse or negligence.

But the sect could challenge the search warrant that police used to enter the compound if the girl is never identified and some of the evidence that investigators found could be suppressed, she said.

"In a criminal case, you have the right to know who may give the government probable cause to come on the premises," she said.

In her calls to the family shelter, Sarah said she believed she was pregnant with her second child. She claimed her husband was a 49-year-old man named Dale. She said that he raped and beat her, once breaking her ribs, and that she was being held at the ranch against her will.

This weekend, Texas Rangers interviewed Dale Evans Barlow, 50, who is named in the search and arrest warrant used to search the compound, but did not arrest him.

Barlow was briefly jailed in Arizona last year, sentenced to three years' probation and forced to register as a sex offender after he was convicted of conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor, according to Mohave County, Ariz., Probation Department Chief Friend Walker.

But, Barlow's lawyer told ABC News that he has not been to Texas since 1977 and Walker said Barlow had been checking in regularly with his Arizona probation officer.

Kathleen Mackert, who said she fled the FLDS community in Colorado City after years of sexual abuse, said she believes Sarah is real but may have been taken out of the compound before police arrived.

"They would want to avoid them getting ahold of her at all costs," she said.

Mackert said sect members are taught that they should lie to the government and other outsiders. "We were expected to lie," she said. "They were the enemy."

Sarah's absence probably will not affect today's custody hearing, during which the state will ask to keep the children in state custody and place them in temporary foster homes, legal experts say. More important to the future of the children in state custody will be what the police found once they were inside the compound.

Guy Choate, who is helping to coordinate lawyers for the children, said it's not unusual for child custody cases to be based on an anonymous call. If caseworkers find evidence of abuse, they are obligated to take action, he said.
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