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Old 07-27-2005, 11:57 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Shooting someone because you THINK they are going to do something is a lot different then if you KNOW.
And sometimes, you don't know until it's too late. You would prefer the police took a chance and let a suspected bomber walk free and then blow a train to pieces just because they weren't 100% sure he had a bomb?

Quote:
If the SAW bombs strapped to him then of course, they need to defend themselves, but when its just a THOUGHT, death is final.
Oh, come on. Be serious. No suicide bomber's going to walk around flashing bombs to every cop or anyone else who cares to look. They're going to keep them very closely concealed.

And you're still acting as if the police just decided to brutally kill the man without giving him a chance. When was the last time a pack of cops did that? Wait until the bloody investigation's results come out first before you start crucifying the officers and labelling people "heartless" just because they think there might be more to this story than the 'terrible police!' side of it.
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:41 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
well for one they DIDNT know he had a bomb under his jacket, they just assumed.

Shooting someone because you THINK they are going to do something is a lot different then if you KNOW.

As its been said heaps of times already there are numurous reasons why he ran and sadly as its been shown, none of them had to do with the bombings.

If the SAW bombs strapped to him then of course, they need to defend themselves, but when its just a THOUGHT, death is final. What do you think his final thoughts were.

god everyone here is so heartless. Don't you even care that an innocent man (in that he was not connected with the bombers or have a bomb on him as well) was shot down and died. He was a young man, with a family. Does that not sit funny in your stomach?

You need to grow a head that can LOOK BOTH WAYS before making a decision!
Sweetheart, keep your wig on for a minute.

'Everyone here is so heartless'? Have you bothered reading the thread?!?!? If you have, then you'll know that a lot of people (including myself) have questioned the reasons for this shooting, and the general consenus does NOT reflect what you have just accused us of.

Do you really think we're sat here in London patting the Met Police on the back for killing an innocent man?! Give us a little more credit.

We've all got strong feelings about this. Lobbing accusations like that is pointless and defeats the pbject of us being here at all. I'm not trying to preach, as I've thrown my toys out of the pram a fair few times on this board... but I wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush, no matter how angry I was. We've had many different points of view in this thread... that is why the thread exists in the first place.
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:49 AM   #108
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From the BBC:
Quote:
WEDNESDAY 27 JULY

Police investigating the 21 July bombings arrest four men at two addresses in Birmingham.

Police have dealt with 250 suicide bomb scares since the 7 July London attacks, Metropolitan Police commissioner Sir Ian Blair has said.
Has anyone heard the news this morning? There are pretty pictures of nail bombs in milk bottles all over the papers. 9 men were arrested in London last night. 16 nail bombs were found.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4723229.stm
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Old 07-28-2005, 09:19 PM   #109
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Hmmm...

From the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4725659.stm

Quote:
Brazilian's visa expired in 2003
Jean Charles de Menezes
Mr Menezes was fleeing officers when he was shot eight times
The visa of Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes expired two years before he was shot by police, the Home Office says.

A passport stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain "was not in use" on that date, added officials.

Mr Menezes, 27, was shot at Stockwell Tube station by officers wrongly suspecting him of being linked to the London bombings.

His body has been returned to Brazil to be buried in his home town of Gonzaga in the south-east.

Home Office officials said they wished to end speculation over his immigration status but added it was not intended to influence any investigations.

Scotland Yard has admitted he was not connected to the attacks and Metropolitan Police chief Sir Ian Blair has apologised to Mr Menezes' family.

Burial planned

On Thursday the Home Office said it wished to repeat the government's "deep regret at his tragic death".

The department's statement said Mr Menezes arrived in the UK on 13 March 2002 and was granted entry for six months as a visitor.

He applied for leave to remain as a student, which was approved and he was granted leave to remain until 30 June 2003.

"We have no record of any further application or correspondence from Mr Menezes.

"We have seen a copy of Mr Menezes' passport containing a stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain in the UK.

Protest in Gonzaga
Protests in Brazil have included one in Mr Menezes' home town

"On investigation, this stamp was not one that was in use by the Immigration and Nationality Directorate on the date given."

The statement added: "This information is not intended in any way to prejudice or influence the independent investigation into the circumstances of Mr De Menezes' death, or any possible future proceedings."

Officials said the information has been passed to the Brazilian government so his family could be informed.

Mr Menezes will be buried on Friday.

Manhunt continues

Meanwhile a major police operation is under way on the UK's transport system, with officers on a precautionary high alert to reassure the public and deter would-be attackers.

In other developments, nine men have been held by anti-terror police in Tooting, south London, following raids on two addresses on Thursday.

It is not thought that any of the suspected bombers is among them.

On Wednesday night three women were held in Stockwell, a few miles away, on suspicion of harbouring offenders.

Police are continuing to question 21 July suspect Yasin Hassan Omar following his arrest in Birmingham, as the search for the other three suspects goes on.

The 24-year-old who is suspected of the attempted bombing of a Victoria Line train, near Warren Street, is being questioned at London's high-security Paddington Green police station.
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:06 PM   #110
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Ouch. That's nasty. No wonder he ran.
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:45 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Ouch. That's nasty. No wonder he ran.
Yep.

Quote:
His body has been returned to Brazil to be buried in his home town of Gonzaga in the south-east.

In other developments, nine men have been held by anti-terror police in Tooting, south London, following raids on two addresses on Thursday.

It is not thought that any of the suspected bombers is among them.
That hits hard, right in the gut. Whichever bastards actually WERE involved in the bombings, and haven't been found, must feel smug as hell.

Can't think of anything else to say, really.
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Old 07-29-2005, 01:09 AM   #112
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Quote:
Brazilian did not wear bulky jacket

Relatives say Met admits that, contrary to reports, electrician did not leap tube station barrier

Mark Honigsbaum

Thursday July 28, 2005

Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian shot dead in the head, was not wearing a heavy jacket that might have concealed a bomb, and did not jump the ticket barrier when challenged by armed plainclothes police, his cousin said yesterday.

Speaking at a press conference after a meeting with the Metropolitan police, Vivien Figueiredo, 22, said that the first reports of how her 27-year-old cousin had come to be killed in mistake for a suicide bomber on Friday at Stockwell tube station were wrong.

"He used a travel card," she said.

"He had no bulky jacket, he was wearing a jeans jacket.

But even if he was wearing a bulky jacket that wouldn't be an excuse to kill him."

Flanked by the de Menezes family's solicitor, Gareth Peirce, and by Bianca Jagger, the anti-Iraq war campaigner, she condemned the shoot-to-kill policy which had led to her cousin's death and vowed that what she called the "crime" would not go unpunished.

"My cousin was an honest and hard working person," said Ms Figueiredo who shared a flat with him in Tulse Hill, south London. "Although we are living in circumstances similar to a war, we should not be exterminating people unjustly."

Another cousin, Patricia da Silva Armani, 21, said

he was in Britain legally to work and study, giving him no reason to fear the police.

"An innocent man has been killed as though he was a terrorist," she said. "An incredibly grave error was committed by the British police."

Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at 10am last Friday after being followed from Tulse Hill. Scotland Yard initially claimed he wore a bulky jacket and jumped the barrier when police identified themselves and ordered him to stop. The same day the Met commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, said the shooting was "directly linked" to the unprecedented anti-terror operation on London's streets.

The following day Sir Ian apologised when detectives established that the Brazilian electrician, on his way to a job in north-west London, was not connected to attempts to blow up three underground trains and a bus in the capital.
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Old 07-29-2005, 01:57 AM   #113
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But how does she know he didn't jump the barrier?? Was she there?

Surley they must have some CCTV coverage of the ticket barrier area?? Are they just sitting on the tape as it doesn't show him jumping over it/running away from police???
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Old 07-29-2005, 02:06 AM   #114
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Well, if that's so, that does seem to change things ...

Though even if he wasn't wearing a bulky jacket and didn't jump the ticket barrier, he had to have done something to provoke the police to fire. Didn't eyewitnesses report that he was running anyway? Jump or no jump, you simply don't run from armed police.
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Old 07-29-2005, 03:06 AM   #115
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Hmm. Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not relying entirely on the assessment of grieving relatives.

Before anyone jumps down my throat for that: I mean no disrespect to the family members' feelings, and am not trying to undermine what they have said. However, I imagine that had it been a relative of mine, I would be stuck in a combination of shock, grief, and anger. I feel that someone who has literally just lost a member of their family (in any circumstances) is going to be in a state... in this case, it must be even more horrible. Which is not exactly conducive to offering 100% reliable and unbiased version of events, despite the the family comments seeming to be sensible.

Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
Didn't eyewitnesses report that he was running anyway? Jump or no jump, you simply don't run from armed police.
I'd rather not repeat myself over another 12 million posts in this thread, so after thios am not going to bother. I would just like to point out, though, that it's damn easy for us to sit and say 'should've done this, should've done that' etc.

For what feels like the 55th time this week: neither you nor I have been in this man's shoes... which, under the circumstances, I'm very glad of! Common sense dictates you don't run from armed police, or course, I've seen nobody deny that. Nonetheless, it amazes me that without knowing all the details, and in spite of individual differences and allowing for varying circumstances, a person can be so certain of precisely what should have happened and what should NOT have. It's not as cut and dry as some make it sound.

I really do hope that makes sense, because I'm getting veeeeery bored of saying it again and again like Captain Pugwash's parrot..

I wonder when we'll actually learn what the hell went on there and why.
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Old 07-29-2005, 03:49 AM   #116
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I agree with you, Sara.
What did unfold is rather understandable now, in terms of how events did occur. A man who had overstayed his visa by that long would see the police and only assume they were trying to send him back. No one can surely deny the poor bugger probably ran without thinking, in the heat of the moment.
The cops, god knows their jobs are hard enough, are looking for specific things. In a gross misunderstanding, they see someone who is panicked and fleeing who matches the description of someone with something to hide. There is confusion. Humans with guns. I dont see how anyone can pinpoint anything but how this is a tragic misunderstanding from both parties involved.

One other thing, I reckon (though it's hard to know how these scum feel and think) those bombers must be watching this and thinking 'Shit, the cops will kill us when they find us'. I'd personally be shitting housebricks. But then, I dont intend on ever killing people so senselessly either.
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Old 07-29-2005, 11:58 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
A man who had overstayed his visa by that long would see the police and only assume they were trying to send him back.
But doesn't the story also say "We have seen a copy of Mr Menezes' passport containing a stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain in the UK."...?
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Old 07-29-2005, 12:18 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judah


But doesn't the story also say "We have seen a copy of Mr Menezes' passport containing a stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain in the UK."...?
From BBC news:
Quote:
On Thursday the Home Office said the visa of Mr de Menezes expired two years before he was shot by police.

A passport stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain "was not in use" on that date, added officials.

Home Office officials said they wished to end speculation over his immigration status but added that the statement was not intended to influence any investigations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4726617.stm
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Old 07-29-2005, 04:16 PM   #119
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Well, quite. Um... anyone else?
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Old 07-29-2005, 10:52 PM   #120
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Look, i am sorry for saying everyone is heartless, i didn't mean everyone so i should have chosen my words better. For that i apologise.

I am just so appalled by this. I'm not trying to make the police out to be bloodthirsty killers, because i understand they thought they were doing their job but i think everyone (including the police obviously) is a bit twitchy atm and therefore causes things that shouldn't have happened.

He shouldn't have been shot at all. I was just trying to say in my last post that instead of trying to make him guilty, instead of over and over again questioning why he ran, perhaps people could sit back and think for a moment that and innocent mans life has been taken for no reason. If it was "proper" england, the police don't even carry guns!!! I just think this shot to kill thing is a bad idea and has already shown it doesn't work with this case.

Death is final. And im sorry but saying someone was wearing a bulky jacket doesn't turn them into a suicide bomber conceling bombs.

well obviously people arn't going to get it. Thats cool, each to their own.
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