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Old 07-25-2005, 01:46 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


Completely innocent?

Honestly, it doesn't sound like it to me.
Completely innocent of any terrorist offences though. It sounds increasingly likely that he'd stayed in this country after his visa expired and so ran from the police in fear of being reported to the asylum and immigration services if he was caught.
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:59 PM   #77
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Well if I put myself in the victims shoes, I'm afraid I would have stopped when challenged.
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Old 07-25-2005, 02:07 PM   #78
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Why did he run from armed officers though? I wonder if maybe his English wasn't so good or something and he panicked.

It is tragic - both for his family and the officers involved who must have been under a lot of pressure.
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Old 07-25-2005, 02:24 PM   #79
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Reality check, anyone?

From our official news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm
Quote:
Witnesses report seeing up to 20 plain clothes police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street.
Let's just imagine you are an innocent person, in a strange country. You're suddenly being chased by a random bunch of men, armed with guns - NOT IN OFFICIAL UNIFORM, but in plain clothes - a little detail which I note has conveniently been overlooked throughout this thread. Despite the minor detail that this information has been freely available since an hour after the event.

Quote:
Why did he run from armed officers though? I wonder if maybe his English wasn't so good or something and he panicked.
As said above: they were not uniformed. They were undercover, i.e. dressed like 'ordinary' civilians. HE DID NOT KNOW THEY WERE OFFICERS, unless he was either psychic or aware that he was in deep shit, for whatever reason.

Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
Well if I put myself in the victims shoes, I'm afraid I would have stopped when challenged.
Oh please. Would you really. Even if you didn't know that they were police?

You've been in exactly the same situation (even though we don't know the full details yet)so many times, that you can cqategorically state exactly what you would have done?

What are you going to do, realistically? Hang around and try to explain yourself to a bunch of men chasing you?

It's oh-so-easy for us - all of us - to yap on about what we'd do,. We weren't there and the FACT of the matter is, none of us know.

So let's get real.
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Old 07-25-2005, 02:34 PM   #80
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Police work always seems much easier to do on the Monday morning after the incident.
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Old 07-25-2005, 02:58 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Police work always seems much easier to do on the Monday morning after the incident.
quote:
this information has been freely available since an hour after the event.


Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Completely innocent of any terrorist offences though. It sounds increasingly likely that he'd stayed in this country after his visa expired and so ran from the police in fear of being reported to the asylum and immigration services if he was caught.
That's common sense if I've ever heard it - so, until we are more aware of what precisely went on, goodnight.
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Old 07-25-2005, 04:06 PM   #82
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Oh don't be dumb, people. The Police officers would have had to identify themselves as Police upon drawing a gun on someone. It's the law. The people in the tubes knew that they were Police officers when told to evacuate the train and so the cops were obviously identifying themselves. Unless he didn't know what the word "Police" means, he knew damn well what he was doing when he ran.

And running from armed cops into a tube station the very day after terrorist attacks, jumping the turnstiles...do you think that's not going to be suspicious, especially if you've got nothing to hide?

Nobody seems to be wondering why the guy was wearing a bulky winter coat in July, either. And why the man was leaving a house under surveillance in connection with the attacks.

The guy just seems fishy to me. He may not have been involved specifically in these attacks, but he was either completely stupid or mixed up in something else criminal (and was still being a dumbass anyways).
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Old 07-25-2005, 04:44 PM   #83
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He was from Spain. I know I'd be wearing full body thermals in an English summer if I went there.

But that is neither here nor there. I doubt anyone is going to feel as bad about this as the police. The English armed units are not trigger happy. Bobbies dont even carry guns, do they? I'd hardly say this was an act of cowboy heroics. It was a terrible error. Why that error occured is the most important issue now. Without tarring the police, the questions definitely remain as to why this fellow caused an armed unit to fire.
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Old 07-25-2005, 06:15 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
Completely innocent?

Honestly, it doesn't sound like it to me.
His student visa had just expired apparently....yeah, I guess that's a crime punishable by execution.

I agree with A_Wanderer that we should await the outcome of the inquiry, but really comments like this are just slurring someone you know nothing about.
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Old 07-25-2005, 07:28 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by sallycinnamon78


quote:
this information has been freely available since an hour after the event.

Yet, we can second guess the police action as if we were there.
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Old 07-25-2005, 07:35 PM   #86
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Or condone the police action as if we were there.

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Old 07-25-2005, 08:01 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveC
Oh don't be dumb, people. The Police officers would have had to identify themselves as Police upon drawing a gun on someone. It's the law. The people in the tubes knew that they were Police officers when told to evacuate the train and so the cops were obviously identifying themselves. Unless he didn't know what the word "Police" means, he knew damn well what he was doing when he ran.

And running from armed cops into a tube station the very day after terrorist attacks, jumping the turnstiles...do you think that's not going to be suspicious, especially if you've got nothing to hide?

Nobody seems to be wondering why the guy was wearing a bulky winter coat in July, either. And why the man was leaving a house under surveillance in connection with the attacks.

The guy just seems fishy to me. He may not have been involved specifically in these attacks, but he was either completely stupid or mixed up in something else criminal (and was still being a dumbass anyways).
Great post. A group of twenty undercover police don't just come running after people with guns drawn - I would expect that they would have first tried to speak to him peacefully, identifying themselves sufficiently so that he knew they were law officers rather than random thugs, and I also imagine they wouldn't have pointed a gun at him until after he made a break.

The way some people are making it sound, you'd think twenty cops just randomly descended upon some poor innocent bloke with guns firing. I have a hard time believing that's the case - I would expect and hope that the police gave this man every chance to go peacefully, but he chose to ran.

It's a shame an investigation will probably take forever, as I'd like to know what really happened before we all jump to conclusions and hang the officers.
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Old 07-26-2005, 06:35 AM   #88
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Yeah, you'd have to assume they flipped their badges. Maybe it's different in London where most officers are unarmed, but I know here in the US you don't run from the police. You just don't.
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Old 07-26-2005, 07:31 AM   #89
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Well, according to their policy, they probably would have shot him anyway even if he wasn't running because he was a suspected suicide bomber. I doubt any of the police want to walk up to a suicide bomber and calmly ask him/her to accompany him to the nearest police station. Early reports from the inquiry say he was shot 8 times, once in the shoulder and 7 (SEVEN!!!) times in the head. This seems kind of excessive to me.

Also, suggesting he should have stopped if he knew it was the police is an easy judgement if you are not afraid of being deported from a country. Jean Charles de Menezes had an expired visa and did not want to risk officials finding out and deporting him from Britain. If you run from the police, unless you are armed or shooting at them, the likelihood of them chasing you down and blowing your brains out is remote. Or at least it used to be. Put yourself in this man's shoes before you suggest it was stupid to run. His personal experience with police in his own country, or mental state may have been factors in his instantaneous decision. People are motivated by different incentives and previous to this incident, police were not permitted to shoot first and ask questions later unless there is an explicit danger or threat based on facts not assumptions.
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:37 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by trevster2k


His personal experience with police in his own country, or mental state may have been factors in his instantaneous decision. People are motivated by different incentives and previous to this incident, police were not permitted to shoot first and ask questions later unless there is an explicit danger or threat based on facts not assumptions.
I agree. You can't really make a judgement based on what we have so far heard about this case as we have no idea what this guys circumstances were or what he was thinking when he ran away. People do things when they're in a panic that may seem completely stupid in hindsight but we weren't there so all we can do is speculate.
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