Police shoot 'dead' a suspect, London...

[Belle Chanson]

I can't put into words how this incident enraged me. FEAR.....people really need to try to handle their fear and not let it lead to mistakes such as this. It happens all the time. A man whose house had been previously broken into, came home one night to find the door unlocked. Opened the door, saw a figure, shot the person dead. It happened to be his son who had a key to the house and was home doing laundry.

I also don't get what exactly muslim looks like. 99% of Muslims aren't visibly identifiable any more than Christians are. I was in a cab the other day talking about this London police bullshit incident and the cabby said he'd be wary of sitting beside someone with a backpack and even more so if that person was a Muslim. WTF???????????? and how would one know if that person was a Muslim or not? Some people think it's as simply cut and dried as that. Fear and ignorance........a winning combination.


Belle Chanson

 

[DaveC]

Put yourself in this man's shoes before you suggest it was stupid to run.

It's stupid to run from armed police officers under any circumstances. Period.

 

[trevster2k]

Someone brought up an interesting point to me. If he was a suspected suicide bomber armed with a bomb hidden under his coat ( which we don't know anything about other than the phrase "bulky jacket" ) under surveillance, why did they wait so long to move in on him if he was such a threat to the public? Why not jump on him the moment he entered the street as opposed to when he was near a subway station? Something doesn't make sense here.

Dave, lots of people run from armed police in countries where the police are barbaric and incidents of police brutality are commonplace. He was from Brazil, ever see City of God, it's only a movie based on true events but their police have a history of brutality. This individuals past life experiences caused him to run, it is easy to say don't run when you are a white male sitting comfortably at your keyboard. Protesters run from armed police at every confrontation including revellers at parades and celebrations, almost every single one does not have bullets being shot at them. But if you support the right of police to shoot at citizens without legitmate reason, and I don't regard suspicion to be legitimate, that's your right. Hopefully, you will never experience such a event.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Early reports from the inquiry say he was shot 8 times, once in the shoulder and 7 (SEVEN!!!) times in the head. This seems kind of excessive to me.

Once the decision was made to take him down, it was done. 8 shots pretty much guarantees that the threat (if it was a trigger and not a trigger release bomb) will be removed. They should half-incapacitate if the threat is present. The call was made, that is where the error was, what they did and how they dealt with that threat (which we now know was not there, but that goes back to the call itself) seems a reasonable last resort.

They did not just walk up a suspicious individual and put 7 bullets in his skull.

 

[sallycinnamon78]

Great post. A group of twenty undercover police don't just come running after people with guns drawn - I would expect that they would have first tried to speak to him peacefully, identifying themselves sufficiently so that he knew they were law officers rather than random thugs, and I also imagine they wouldn't have pointed a gun at him until after he made a break.

The way some people are making it sound, you'd think twenty cops just randomly descended upon some poor innocent bloke with guns firing. I have a hard time believing that's the case - I would expect and hope that the police gave this man every chance to go peacefully, but he chose to ran.

I would hope so too, but I'm not counting on it. I wasn't there, nor were you, nor was Dave, so you don't know that this was the case anymore than I do. Like you I am putting forward a possibility. That much is apparent.

Nonetheless, you're both much more likely to be right than I am here, logically speaking. It would make a lot more sense if the way you describe events was the way it happened. It's certainly more rational.

It's a shame an investigation will probably take forever, as I'd like to know what really happened before we all jump to conclusions and hang the officers.

I'm not too fond of hanging anyone metaphorically or literally...! I stand by my point that there may be myriad reasons for his legging it.

Or condone the police action as if we were there.

Quite.

Once the decision was made to take him down, it was done. 8 shots pretty much guarantees that the threat (if it was a trigger and not a trigger release bomb) will be removed. They should half-incapacitate if the threat is present. The call was made, that is where the error was, what they did and how they dealt with that threat (which we now know was not there, but that goes back to the call itself) seems a reasonable last resort.

They did not just walk up a suspicious individual and put 7 bullets in his skull.

What happened to waiting until we have the full story?

 

[sallycinnamon78]

It's stupid to run from armed police officers under any circumstances. Period.

Thanks for that, Sherlock - that IS obvious common sense.Have you considered that people do some odd, and frequently stupid, things when they panic? How easy is it for us to sit here and protest his actions? Were you there? Do you have any clue whatsoever as to what was going through this bloke's head when he reacted like that?

NO. Nor do I, or anyone else here. So, as I said in pretty much every post I've added to this thread - alongside almost evryone else saying the same - let's wait until we know what is going on before hedging our bets.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What happened to waiting until we have the full story?

I am still waiting for the inquiry, but in a situation where there is a bomber running into the underground and the decision has been made to incapacitate them I think that 7 bullets to the head is an effective way to do that.

 

[BVS]

I am still waiting for the inquiry, but in a situation where there is a bomber running into the underground and the decision has been made to incapacitate them I think that 7 bullets to the head is an effective way to do that.

Or just one...

 

[A_Wanderer]

One bullet to the head would kill the most of men, but seven guarantees it.

What guns did the police use and how many were fired?

 

[dazzlingamy]

PUHLEASE.

I hope everyone out there never has to go through what his family will now feel for the rest of their lives after this 'accident'

I'm not saying he was totally innocent, or totally guilty, i just think that shooting someone in the middle of a crowd in such a deadly and horredous way is abbhorent no matter WHAT they guy was.

But then im against the death penalty anyway, so dont think they should shoot to kill in any situation.

And so what if he was guilty, so what if he helped pack the bag of explosives, does that deserve a bullet (or 7) to the head. As someone reported he was being followed by 20 police officers, shoot him in the leg if you must and then jump on him....what a pussy way to get out of doing your job, *just in case he was armed*

 

[randhail]

PUHLEASE.
And so what if he was guilty, so what if he helped pack the bag of explosives, does that deserve a bullet (or 7) to the head. As someone reported he was being followed by 20 police officers, shoot him in the leg if you must and then jump on him....what a pussy way to get out of doing your job, *just in case he was armed*

So basically what your're saying even if a guy has a bomb strapped to his chest, the police shouldn't take him down? If you shoot him in the leg, he can still detonate the bomb. In a situation like that, killing the guy is the right way to go. Would you rather have 50 people die if the police didn't "take the pussy way out?"

Exactly how is shooting someone the pussy way out? Police are trained to use deadly force as a last resort. Do you think they enjoy killing people?

 

[Tilli]

I beleive that the police have adopted a policy (called operation Kratos) recently for terror suspects based on the belief that anyone believed to be carrying explosives are shot in the head. Shooting them in the chest or legs may still allow them to detonate the bomb.

 

[Tilli]

I was in a cab the other day talking about this London police bullshit incident and the cabby said he'd be wary of sitting beside someone with a backpack and even more so if that person was a Muslim. WTF???????????? and how would one know if that person was a Muslim or not? Some people think it's as simply cut and dried as that. Fear and ignorance........a winning combination.


Belle Chanson

It is a scary thought - but that is just what appears to happen when incidents like this happen. There have already been of attacks on Mosques and on Muslims since 7/7 and the attempted bombings last week. There was even some stupid letter in my local paper after 7/7 saying that the government must now do something about the illegal immigration problem now. EH??

People become fearful of anyone who is of a differnet race or ethnic background (which i also expect is part of what terrorists want). This reaction is nearly as frightening as the threat of bombings themselves.

 

[sallycinnamon78]

So basically what your're saying even if a guy has a bomb strapped to his chest, the police shouldn't take him down? If you shoot him in the leg, he can still detonate the bomb. In a situation like that, killing the guy is the right way to go. Would you rather have 50 people die if the police didn't "take the pussy way out?"

Exactly how is shooting someone the pussy way out? Police are trained to use deadly force as a last resort. Do you think they enjoy killing people?

That much I can't argue with at all. If the police know for certain, ie have evidence and no doubt, that someone is about to blow themselves sky high and take a segment of the population out with them, they have to bring the suspect down.

 

[dazzlingamy]

well for one they DIDNT know he had a bomb under his jacket, they just assumed.

Shooting someone because you THINK they are going to do something is a lot different then if you KNOW.

As its been said heaps of times already there are numurous reasons why he ran and sadly as its been shown, none of them had to do with the bombings.

If the SAW bombs strapped to him then of course, they need to defend themselves, but when its just a THOUGHT, death is final. What do you think his final thoughts were.

god everyone here is so heartless. Don't you even care that an innocent man (in that he was not connected with the bombers or have a bomb on him as well) was shot down and died. He was a young man, with a family. Does that not sit funny in your stomach?

You need to grow a head that can LOOK BOTH WAYS before making a decision!

 

[Axver]

Shooting someone because you THINK they are going to do something is a lot different then if you KNOW.

And sometimes, you don't know until it's too late. You would prefer the police took a chance and let a suspected bomber walk free and then blow a train to pieces just because they weren't 100% sure he had a bomb?

If the SAW bombs strapped to him then of course, they need to defend themselves, but when its just a THOUGHT, death is final.

Oh, come on. Be serious. No suicide bomber's going to walk around flashing bombs to every cop or anyone else who cares to look. They're going to keep them very closely concealed.

And you're still acting as if the police just decided to brutally kill the man without giving him a chance. When was the last time a pack of cops did that? Wait until the bloody investigation's results come out first before you start crucifying the officers and labelling people "heartless" just because they think there might be more to this story than the 'terrible police!' side of it.

 

[sallycinnamon78]

well for one they DIDNT know he had a bomb under his jacket, they just assumed.

Shooting someone because you THINK they are going to do something is a lot different then if you KNOW.

As its been said heaps of times already there are numurous reasons why he ran and sadly as its been shown, none of them had to do with the bombings.

If the SAW bombs strapped to him then of course, they need to defend themselves, but when its just a THOUGHT, death is final. What do you think his final thoughts were.

god everyone here is so heartless. Don't you even care that an innocent man (in that he was not connected with the bombers or have a bomb on him as well) was shot down and died. He was a young man, with a family. Does that not sit funny in your stomach?

You need to grow a head that can LOOK BOTH WAYS before making a decision!

Sweetheart, keep your wig on for a minute.

'Everyone here is so heartless'? Have you bothered reading the thread?!?!? If you have, then you'll know that a lot of people (including myself) have questioned the reasons for this shooting, and the general consenus does NOT reflect what you have just accused us of.

Do you really think we're sat here in London patting the Met Police on the back for killing an innocent man?! Give us a little more credit.

We've all got strong feelings about this. Lobbing accusations like that is pointless and defeats the pbject of us being here at all. I'm not trying to preach, as I've thrown my toys out of the pram a fair few times on this board... but I wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush, no matter how angry I was. We've had many different points of view in this thread... that is why the thread exists in the first place.

 

[sallycinnamon78]

From the BBC:

WEDNESDAY 27 JULY

Police investigating the 21 July bombings arrest four men at two addresses in Birmingham.

Police have dealt with 250 suicide bomb scares since the 7 July London attacks, Metropolitan Police commissioner Sir Ian Blair has said.

Has anyone heard the news this morning? There are pretty pictures of nail bombs in milk bottles all over the papers. 9 men were arrested in London last night. 16 nail bombs were found.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4723229.stm

 

[sallycinnamon78]

Hmmm...

From the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4725659.stm

Brazilian's visa expired in 2003
Jean Charles de Menezes
Mr Menezes was fleeing officers when he was shot eight times
The visa of Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes expired two years before he was shot by police, the Home Office says.

A passport stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain "was not in use" on that date, added officials.

Mr Menezes, 27, was shot at Stockwell Tube station by officers wrongly suspecting him of being linked to the London bombings.

His body has been returned to Brazil to be buried in his home town of Gonzaga in the south-east.

Home Office officials said they wished to end speculation over his immigration status but added it was not intended to influence any investigations.

Scotland Yard has admitted he was not connected to the attacks and Metropolitan Police chief Sir Ian Blair has apologised to Mr Menezes' family.

Burial planned

On Thursday the Home Office said it wished to repeat the government's "deep regret at his tragic death".

The department's statement said Mr Menezes arrived in the UK on 13 March 2002 and was granted entry for six months as a visitor.

He applied for leave to remain as a student, which was approved and he was granted leave to remain until 30 June 2003.

"We have no record of any further application or correspondence from Mr Menezes.

"We have seen a copy of Mr Menezes' passport containing a stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain in the UK.

Protest in Gonzaga
Protests in Brazil have included one in Mr Menezes' home town

"On investigation, this stamp was not one that was in use by the Immigration and Nationality Directorate on the date given."

The statement added: "This information is not intended in any way to prejudice or influence the independent investigation into the circumstances of Mr De Menezes' death, or any possible future proceedings."

Officials said the information has been passed to the Brazilian government so his family could be informed.

Mr Menezes will be buried on Friday.

Manhunt continues

Meanwhile a major police operation is under way on the UK's transport system, with officers on a precautionary high alert to reassure the public and deter would-be attackers.

In other developments, nine men have been held by anti-terror police in Tooting, south London, following raids on two addresses on Thursday.

It is not thought that any of the suspected bombers is among them.

On Wednesday night three women were held in Stockwell, a few miles away, on suspicion of harbouring offenders.

Police are continuing to question 21 July suspect Yasin Hassan Omar following his arrest in Birmingham, as the search for the other three suspects goes on.

The 24-year-old who is suspected of the attempted bombing of a Victoria Line train, near Warren Street, is being questioned at London's high-security Paddington Green police station.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Ouch. That's nasty. No wonder he ran.

 

[sallycinnamon78]

Ouch. That's nasty. No wonder he ran.

Yep.

His body has been returned to Brazil to be buried in his home town of Gonzaga in the south-east.

In other developments, nine men have been held by anti-terror police in Tooting, south London, following raids on two addresses on Thursday.

It is not thought that any of the suspected bombers is among them.

That hits hard, right in the gut. Whichever bastards actually WERE involved in the bombings, and haven't been found, must feel smug as hell.

Can't think of anything else to say, really.

 

[deep]

Brazilian did not wear bulky jacket

Relatives say Met admits that, contrary to reports, electrician did not leap tube station barrier

Mark Honigsbaum

Thursday July 28, 2005

Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian shot dead in the head, was not wearing a heavy jacket that might have concealed a bomb, and did not jump the ticket barrier when challenged by armed plainclothes police, his cousin said yesterday.

Speaking at a press conference after a meeting with the Metropolitan police, Vivien Figueiredo, 22, said that the first reports of how her 27-year-old cousin had come to be killed in mistake for a suicide bomber on Friday at Stockwell tube station were wrong.

"He used a travel card," she said.

"He had no bulky jacket, he was wearing a jeans jacket.

But even if he was wearing a bulky jacket that wouldn't be an excuse to kill him."

Flanked by the de Menezes family's solicitor, Gareth Peirce, and by Bianca Jagger, the anti-Iraq war campaigner, she condemned the shoot-to-kill policy which had led to her cousin's death and vowed that what she called the "crime" would not go unpunished.

"My cousin was an honest and hard working person," said Ms Figueiredo who shared a flat with him in Tulse Hill, south London. "Although we are living in circumstances similar to a war, we should not be exterminating people unjustly."

Another cousin, Patricia da Silva Armani, 21, said

he was in Britain legally to work and study, giving him no reason to fear the police.

"An innocent man has been killed as though he was a terrorist," she said. "An incredibly grave error was committed by the British police."

Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at 10am last Friday after being followed from Tulse Hill. Scotland Yard initially claimed he wore a bulky jacket and jumped the barrier when police identified themselves and ordered him to stop. The same day the Met commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, said the shooting was "directly linked" to the unprecedented anti-terror operation on London's streets.

The following day Sir Ian apologised when detectives established that the Brazilian electrician, on his way to a job in north-west London, was not connected to attempts to blow up three underground trains and a bus in the capital.

 

[karls77]

But how does she know he didn't jump the barrier?? Was she there?

Surley they must have some CCTV coverage of the ticket barrier area?? Are they just sitting on the tape as it doesn't show him jumping over it/running away from police???

 

[Axver]

Well, if that's so, that does seem to change things ...

Though even if he wasn't wearing a bulky jacket and didn't jump the ticket barrier, he had to have done something to provoke the police to fire. Didn't eyewitnesses report that he was running anyway? Jump or no jump, you simply don't run from armed police.

 

[sallycinnamon78]

Hmm. Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not relying entirely on the assessment of grieving relatives.

Before anyone jumps down my throat for that: I mean no disrespect to the family members' feelings, and am not trying to undermine what they have said. However, I imagine that had it been a relative of mine, I would be stuck in a combination of shock, grief, and anger. I feel that someone who has literally just lost a member of their family (in any circumstances) is going to be in a state... in this case, it must be even more horrible. Which is not exactly conducive to offering 100% reliable and unbiased version of events, despite the the family comments seeming to be sensible.

Didn't eyewitnesses report that he was running anyway? Jump or no jump, you simply don't run from armed police.

I'd rather not repeat myself over another 12 million posts in this thread, so after thios am not going to bother. I would just like to point out, though, that it's damn easy for us to sit and say 'should've done this, should've done that' etc.

For what feels like the 55th time this week: neither you nor I have been in this man's shoes... which, under the circumstances, I'm very glad of! Common sense dictates you don't run from armed police, or course, I've seen nobody deny that. Nonetheless, it amazes me that without knowing all the details, and in spite of individual differences and allowing for varying circumstances, a person can be so certain of precisely what should have happened and what should NOT have. It's not as cut and dry as some make it sound.

I really do hope that makes sense, because I'm getting veeeeery bored of saying it again and again like Captain Pugwash's parrot..

I wonder when we'll actually learn what the hell went on there and why.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I agree with you, Sara.
What did unfold is rather understandable now, in terms of how events did occur. A man who had overstayed his visa by that long would see the police and only assume they were trying to send him back. No one can surely deny the poor bugger probably ran without thinking, in the heat of the moment.
The cops, god knows their jobs are hard enough, are looking for specific things. In a gross misunderstanding, they see someone who is panicked and fleeing who matches the description of someone with something to hide. There is confusion. Humans with guns. I dont see how anyone can pinpoint anything but how this is a tragic misunderstanding from both parties involved.

One other thing, I reckon (though it's hard to know how these scum feel and think) those bombers must be watching this and thinking 'Shit, the cops will kill us when they find us'. I'd personally be shitting housebricks. But then, I dont intend on ever killing people so senselessly either.

 

[Judah]

A man who had overstayed his visa by that long would see the police and only assume they were trying to send him back.

But doesn't the story also say "We have seen a copy of Mr Menezes' passport containing a stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain in the UK."...?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

But doesn't the story also say "We have seen a copy of Mr Menezes' passport containing a stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain in the UK."...?

From BBC news:

On Thursday the Home Office said the visa of Mr de Menezes expired two years before he was shot by police.

A passport stamp apparently giving him indefinite leave to remain "was not in use" on that date, added officials.

Home Office officials said they wished to end speculation over his immigration status but added that the statement was not intended to influence any investigations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4726617.stm

 

[sallycinnamon78]

Well, quite. Um... anyone else?

 

[dazzlingamy]

Look, i am sorry for saying everyone is heartless, i didn't mean everyone so i should have chosen my words better. For that i apologise.

I am just so appalled by this. I'm not trying to make the police out to be bloodthirsty killers, because i understand they thought they were doing their job but i think everyone (including the police obviously) is a bit twitchy atm and therefore causes things that shouldn't have happened.

He shouldn't have been shot at all. I was just trying to say in my last post that instead of trying to make him guilty, instead of over and over again questioning why he ran, perhaps people could sit back and think for a moment that and innocent mans life has been taken for no reason. If it was "proper" england, the police don't even carry guns!!! I just think this shot to kill thing is a bad idea and has already shown it doesn't work with this case.

Death is final. And im sorry but saying someone was wearing a bulky jacket doesn't turn them into a suicide bomber conceling bombs.

well obviously people arn't going to get it. Thats cool, each to their own.