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Old 07-23-2005, 09:22 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
But didn't this guy actually run from the police? Why would've he ran if he had nothing to hide?

Thats what I want to know..
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:24 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
But didn't this guy actually run from the police? Why would've he ran if he had nothing to hide?
That's what everyone is trying to figure out. He ran from the police, even jumping a ticket barrier according to reports. Maybe he didn't understand english very well. Maybe he was mixed up in something else (drugs, other crime, etc.) and legged it for that reason.

I can see how he might be confused though, as they were plain clothed police officers with large guns - not a normal everyday sight. Perhaps the police should have publicised this "shoot to kill" policy before hand so everyone would have known just to cooperate if challenged.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:35 PM   #48
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I've been thinking about that too. I think it's a good possibility he was mixed up in drugs or gang crime, that would explain why he'd immediately run away from them, especially if they weren't in uniforms.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:36 PM   #49
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I think that it warrants an investigation.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:41 PM   #50
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From The Guardian:

"The address in Tulse Hill [where he lived] was identified from materials found inside the bombers' unexploded rucksacks on Thursday and was immediately put under surveillance. When Menezes, dressed in baseball cap, blue fleece and baggy trousers, emerged from it at around 10am on Friday, he was followed. When he headed for the nearby tube station, officers decided to arrest him. An armed unit took over, ordering him to stop. He did not. His unseasonally thick jacket apparently prompted concern that he had explosives strapped beneath."
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Old 07-24-2005, 12:42 AM   #51
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Its now a MISTAKE. He had NOTHING to do with the bombings at ALL.


This is why 'shoot to kill' is the most fucking pathetic retarded thing ever. Like we are to think that police are rational thoughtful people that can handle situations. pffffffffft. There just like us, panic like shit and (for some) shoot first ask questions later!


LONDON (Reuters) - The apparent adoption of a shoot-to-kill policy by police balances the hope of stopping suicide bombers against the risk of alienating Muslims who fear they will be the most likely figures in the crosshairs.

Police hunting four men who tried to bomb London's transport system on Thursday -- two weeks after suicide bombers killed 52 commuters -- chased and shot dead a man on Friday who had been under surveillance and refused orders to halt.

They said they believed he was carrying a bomb. But late on Saturday they admitted they had got the wrong man and expressed regret.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005," they said in a statement. "For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."

The man's killing, at point-blank range with five shots to the head in front of shocked passengers on a packed underground train, triggered speculation that traditionally unarmed police had radically changed their approach.

"On Thursday the terrorists sent a message which was ... we can still reach out and touch you wherever you are," anti-terrorism expert Robert Ayers of the Royal Institute of International Affairs think tank told Reuters.

"The police message on Friday was 'we are not messing around ... we are going to kill your ass'," he said, noting the aim was to stop the device being triggered even in the throes of death.

Ayers said that aiming for the head not only ensured almost instantaneous death but also avoided the torso, where suicide bombers tend to carry their explosives which could be detonated by a bullet.

"Simple nervous system shut-down, that is the objective," Ayers said.

"The Metropolitan Police have very clearly demonstrated that they are operating on the premise right now that if they suspect that someone is a bomber, and that the public is going to be endangered by him, they have shoot-to-kill orders," he added.

NO DETERRENT?

But anti-terrorism expert Magnus Ranstorp of St Andrews University in Scotland said the policy -- which he said was openly adopted three years ago -- could do more harm than good.

"The Muslim community is very uneasy about this -- understandably," he told Reuters. "If there is a series of shooting incidents like this then it becomes a big political issue.

"This is not a major deterrent in terms of carrying out an attack, but it is counterproductive to the careful strategy that the police and government have set out in terms of minimising polarisation within ethnic communities," he added.

The Islamic Human Rights Commission (IHRC), said it was deeply concerned at the apparent policy.

"IHRC fears that innocent people may lose their lives due to the new 'shoot to kill' policy of the Metropolitan Police," chairman Massoud Shadjareh said in a statement.

It also said police had taken lessons from Israeli security services which have extensive experience in suicide bombings -- a line echoed by some newspapers.

The Metropolitan police declined to comment.

Shoot-to-kill is not a new phenomenon. It was allegedly used by British security forces in Northern Ireland and by the Special Air Service when its operatives shot dead three Irish Republican Army suspects in Gibraltar in 1988.

But it is deeply controversial.

"The overwhelming duty is to save lives, and the niceties of gentle community policing may have to be brushed aside," The Times newspaper said in an editorial defending the police.

However, the Financial Times said police had "taken a potentially dangerous turning", while the Daily Mail said they risked being accused of behaving "as badly as the terrorists".


I agree. Now yes, the guy ran, but there are lots of reasons why he ran, which he could have been ASKED had he not been shot in the head 5 times.

This happened in LONDON. In a first world country that is respectable and has a reputation for unarmed negotiation. This isn't America or some middle eastern place.

It frightens me, and i'm worried for friends of mine who are muslim, from lebanon and live in London, who ar eopposed to the war in Iraq. What if one day one of them accidently gets 'shot'
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Old 07-24-2005, 01:05 AM   #52
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Wait for the investigation; people are being very hasty to condemn the officers involved.

If there was reasonable cause to think that he posed a threat to the passengers on the train as a bomber and the decision to incapacitate him was made on that basis shooting him in the head seems to be a reasonable protective measure. This was not an accident, the officers acted deliberately and when there has been an investigation the events and responsibility may be more adequately placed.
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Old 07-24-2005, 01:33 AM   #53
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he left a house where the police THOUGHT some materials from a backpack had come from.

He was unarmed, wearing a bulky jacket and got frightened when plain clothes police men drew guns on him. Now im not saying he was an innocent bystander, he might have known something about the bombings. But they will never know because they shot him dead.

and therein lies the problem.
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Old 07-24-2005, 03:02 AM   #54
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Because one somebody dies you can never, ever find out anything about them

But his guilt or innocence was never put to trial in this and the announcement that he had no connection should be taken at face value, he was an innocent man.
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Old 07-24-2005, 11:18 AM   #55
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This makes me nervous and sad all at once. *speechless*

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Old 07-24-2005, 01:09 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
But didn't this guy actually run from the police? Why would've he ran if he had nothing to hide?
Why do people on the road, who are driving prefectly legally within the speed limit, almost always slow down when a police car goes by with no siren on at all? As a passenger, I've noticed that this is automatic - it's always noticable. This happens invariably, unless the car they're after really is criminals trying to get way in a hurry. That's the UK for you.

It's not the same... but it is. Except this is much worse.

Being tailed by police freaks a lot of people out whether they've done anything wrong or not. As this generally applies to drivers reacting automatically to police presence, I would think that a lot of p[eople would have reacted in a similar way to thios unfortunate man.

It's also human nature to leg it if someone is chasing you - it's a natural instinct.

People are strange. So him running away means nothing.
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Old 07-24-2005, 01:38 PM   #57
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Welcome to the world of inner-city America, where even teens are routinely killed by police for suspected "drug crimes" every day, or for things like "resisting arrest." All you have to do is look the part. If they are able to plant drugs and things on you, so much the better.

Would they do this if the guy was white and dressed in expensive work clothes? The only really dumb thing Binny appears to doing right now is not recruiting or attempting to recruit people for his operations who look less suspicious. (Dumb, of course, I mean looking at it from his POV...not what I want to be doing, of course, but "know your enemy"!) Eastern Europeans, etc. The day the Bastard in Chief catches on to this little combat tactic, and begins operations using people who look similar to the place where they intend to attack, things will get REALLY hairy.....
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Old 07-24-2005, 01:52 PM   #58
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But police don't randomly come running at you with guns; I would assume they would have at least identified themselves and he would've known that they were the police. So it still seems very suspicious to me that he sprinted to get away from them if he had absolutely nothing to hide.

I would love to know the results of the investigation. It seems way too soon to flatly condemn the police officers for shooting an 'innocent' man.
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Old 07-24-2005, 02:00 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Like we are to think that police are rational thoughtful people that can handle situations. pffffffffft. There just like us, panic like shit and (for some) shoot first ask questions later!
That's nonsense. Police cadets go to at least 16 weeks academy to learn how to handle these types of situations, and are well-trained to han dle dangerous situations. Have you had 16 weeks of Police Academy? They are not "just like" you.
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Old 07-24-2005, 02:01 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teta040
Welcome to the world of inner-city America, where even teens are routinely killed by police for suspected "drug crimes" every day, or for things like "resisting arrest." All you have to do is look the part. If they are able to plant drugs and things on you, so much the better.
The crooked cops are the minority, not the majority.
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